Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:00]:

interested, Bishop, in your take on what the Bible says about this. What is fair and just from the scriptural point of view, or what can the church say? What say you about that, and given this conversation we're having about justice issues here in our country as we celebrate our 250th anniversary?

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:17]:

Well, I'm really on a hobby horse, if you will, a bandwagon, and we need to drive people back to a love that is equated by the acts of justice. Uh, you know, the Apostle Paul said, let love be genuine, hate what is evil, uh, uh, and hold fast. One translation, hate what is evil but cling to that which is good. Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil. And I would add this, uh, add this, Brad, overcome evil and evildoers.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:48]:

Evil, yes.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:49]:

With good.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:50]:

Yeah. So, so before you get too far away, do you happen to know the reference There, my friend?

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:55]:

Yeah, it's, it's, that's, uh, from Romans the 12th chapter. Romans chapter— verse 1 and verse 19.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:01:01]:

Okay.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:01:02]:

And you reach Romans 12, uh, it's attributed, you know, don't, don't be overcome by evil. And in fact, that appears in the Bible more than once. Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. And we see that message in, in the, in the, from the prophet Isaiah.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:01:16]:

Sure.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:01:17]:

You know, who says, the fast that I desire is that you care for the poor, that you care for the homeless, that you address concern for the widow.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:01:28]:

Yeah, I mean, if you talk about the basic things that Jesus says and what the Bible says, it's just, you know, what is it? Care for the widow, care for the orphans, care for the stranger. You know, that's pretty basic. And those themes are consistent. It is consistent throughout not only the New Testament and the Old Testament as well, but particularly in the teachings of Jesus. And it seems like, Bishop, do you see what you think? Those are just glossed over and overlooked or selectively contextually not held up by many people who proclaim themselves as Christians. I don't get it. I don't get it. And it's upsetting as the people then leverage their supposed Christianity to serve an agenda that is anti-homeless, that is anti-orphans, if you will, anti-widows, anti-strangers.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:02:15]:

They, they promote that agenda. It's not biblical, and it's certainly not of the church. Now, I'm sorry about my rant there, but I wanted to see what you, you, you think, because we have people who I believe are leveraging the words of Jesus and who are leveraging the, uh, the word Christianity for their agenda.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:02:35]:

Well, we believe that God's love— loves— we believe God loves and is present with every person. even before they are aware of it. God seeks to make us whole and holy. That's in, you know, that comes from our Social Principles of the United Methodist Church. I mean, and I'm really impacted not just by Matthew 25, but when Jesus says— and recently Senator Warnock and the Republican head of the House of Representatives, I guess, had a conversation. I don't know if it was a debate. Both of them are devout Christians.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:03:10]:

Yes.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:03:11]:

One's a clergy person, one's a layperson, but both are devout Christians. And they, they were looking at that. And one of the things Senator Warnock said, and we know this as preachers as well, is that that Matthew text, Jesus said he makes reference to nations. And some people just look at that from the standpoint of, well, that means individual Christians are supposed to feed the hungry and individual Christians are supposed to go visit the prisoners. Individual Christians are supposed to clothe the naked. But Jesus said that, you know, the nations shall be judged by this.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:03:48]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:03:48]:

So, I'm one who argues the government should not do everything for all people, but Abraham Lincoln said the role of government should be to lift all artificial weights from its citizens. And so, if people— and it was a good thing when Social Security was started because it eradicated guaranteed poverty for lots of senior citizens.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:04:13]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:14]:

People used to work, and when they got through working, then maybe they joined the ranks of those who were totally impoverished because, you know, there were a lot of places you didn't have a pension plan or you had a very small pension plan and no post-hospital hospitalization plan unless you can afford hospital. So then the, you know, socialists— so people say, well, you know, you can't vote, you don't want to vote for them, they're the communists, they're the socialists. So, well, we have, you know, we have Social Security. I guess that's socialism too, if it's something that cares for all of the people.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:04:50]:

I think one of the things we have is we have a basic non-understanding among many people about some of the basic terms. What is socialism? What is fascism? What is Nazism? You know, what is communism? What are— you know, people don't get it. They are just throwing out terms like this to bash the other side. They didn't even get— they don't even know what they're talking about. And so I think we as Christians need to, in my opinion, need to kind of reverse the— reverse our situation a little bit and get back to some biblical understanding and biblical terminology. and take everything through, through, through Jesus and through, through the teachings of the New Testament. And in order to do this, so I'm interested then in your take then on how a local church or a local clergy could respond to some of these issues that we're talking about here today. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:41]:

Yeah, I think we should respond with, with the answer that Jesus gave in terms of the greatest commandment is not only to love God, but also to love our neighbor. And we need to have a much more gracious, and I would call it generous and expansive understanding of neighbor. Neighbor doesn't mean just a person of my same race or my same generation, you know.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:06:07]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:06:07]:

We now, now we seem like we want to do everything, but that's a Generation Z, that's a generation, that's a millennial, that's a baby boomer. We find ways, Brad, to always cluster ourselves and cloister ourselves in such a way when, when Jesus said the greatest of these things is to, is to love, uh, one another. Blessed are those who will be peacemakers, for they will seek justice and be called children of God. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst, for they will be filled. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Who's supposed to do the feeding? Who's supposed to do the comforting? All of us are supposed to be doing that. And when Jesus says the greatest commandment, he said to them, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. And what I like about the story of the Good Samaritan was that that translated into resources being shared, wounds being healed, and promises of support being made.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:07:11]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:07:12]:

So when we say we want to be a Matthew 25 church, I tell pastors and preachers that, uh, that there's no, uh, there's no reason to skip around the judgment of the nations, uh, because all the nations will be gathered before according to Jesus, and they will be separated from the sheep from the goats. And he said, then the king will say to those on his right, Come, you are blessed, and inherit and be the kingdom prepared for you. For I was hungry— and didn't say that you talked about food, it said I gave you food.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:07:50]:

It wasn't just policy talk, it was actually doing it.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:07:54]:

That's right. I was thirsty, and you did not, uh, pass a resolution at annual conference about clean water. Uh, you gave me something to drink.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:08:04]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:04]:

I was a stranger. This is the one we have the most problem with, Brad.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:08:09]:

Yes.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:10]:

If people could eradicate this. Oh my goodness. I don't know if you know this, but there was something called the Slave Bible. So when during slavery, the Bible that was used for both whites and for when slaves were able to be on the outside, 95% of what's in the New Testament was not— there was— was not there.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:08:31]:

Yeah.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:32]:

So it was, it was redacted. So the Bible that was used is called the Slave, and there's still 2 copies of the Slave Bible. One of them is, one of them is, and I believe it's at Tennessee State University or Fisk University, but it's in Nashville, Tennessee.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:08:47]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:48]:

So, and the other one I think is, is in London, uh, the Slave Bible. But the reason I bring that up is because people, they don't, uh, they don't They skip over that one. I was a stranger.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:09:01]:

Absolutely.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:09:03]:

I was naked and you clothed me. Then the righteous will answer, well, when did we do this, Lord? You know, I gave to my church, you know, and they said, whenever you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me. So our injury is not just to, you know, to our, to our favorite caucus group. You know, theologically, our injury is to Christ. We are injuring Christ every time we fail to demonstrate love that's tied with justice. The good news, I think, though, is that I've been reading, Brad, recently, just going back, reading some things about the Constitution. You know, all of this talk has gotten me interested in one of the books, a little book I got called The Greatest Sentence Ever Written. And it's a powerful little book.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:09:53]:

Let's start with the beginning. It says, we. The first word of the sentence is also the first word in our Constitution, drafted 11 years later, which begins, we the people. The phrase we the people is profound, as profound as it is simple. And then he goes on, he goes on, gives a disclaimer, said, let's, let's Let's be honest about this. When they wrote this, they didn't mean everybody.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:10:24]:

Yeah.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:10:25]:

They didn't mean women. They didn't mean Blacks. They didn't mean Native Americans. But they did— there was a sense of openness in the Declaration of Independence. I've been reading the last part of the Declaration of Independence, 1776, says the declaration that we we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. Hmm. And before that sentence, this is at the very end of the Declaration, it says, with a firm reliance on divine providence. Now, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, Brad, does not say anything about Christianity or religion, in spite of what people say.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:11:12]:

If we go back and read it.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:11:13]:

Are you telling me, Bishop, that if people actually read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and actually took it to heart and maybe then also read the New Testament, especially the words of Jesus, there might be a different outlook on things? Is that what you're saying here, my friend?

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:11:28]:

Well, what I'm saying is that those who are arguing that we are a Christian nation, you know, it's not— that's not in the Constitution. And if we want to be a Christian nation, as Gandhi said, then Christians ought to, you know, I'm way taking license here, right? But he said, you know, I'm paraphrasing. He's not the only one who said this. He said, I might become a Christian if I saw people who actually were living their lives the way they espouse to be Christian. So I say I'm less of— I'm a less fan of us calling ourselves a Christian nation. I'm a bigger fan of Christians acting like we love, we can love our neighbors in such a way that we could have much more influence.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:12:10]:

Well, this, what we were talking about, perfect example, people draw on things things out of context. I mean, I'm gonna go off on a slight tangent here. I'm a student of the, the, you know, Declaration of Independence era, especially Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, those fellows there, George Washington, and many of those 3 particularly. But I'm— I visited Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's home, uh, about a year ago. They were, they were, uh, students of the Enlightenment Age.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:12:37]:

Mm-hmm.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:12:37]:

Not necessarily of the biblical literalist age. They weren't about, you know, what is knowledge, what is being enlightened, and that kind of thing. And that informed them certainly as much, if not more than, any kind of a Christian bias. So I just think we've got to be careful when we start to lift things out of context and apply them to our agendas, and I see a lot of that happening.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:00]:

Well, again, Christianity and religion is not mentioned in the Constitution. Article 6, really, you know, is the place that we often refer to. But I mean, it says, you know, no, there will be no religious tests required. Right. So there's no— there's protection for people to practice religion or not practice religion.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:13:21]:

That's right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:23]:

So we have freedom. That's where we do have freedom of religion. But not what I say. We don't have freedom to foster our religion. on others. 62% of the country, according to the Pew Research, Pew Research, 62% of those in the United States of America espouse to be Belonging Christians of some— Christians of—

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:13:46]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:46]:

Some with denominations and some with, you know, not any mainstream denomination. But, you know, the second largest group are 25 to 27% who people, you know, people, some of them call the nones. They have no religious affiliation whatsoever. You know, a percentage of those people might call themselves atheists or agnostic, but a larger growing number of people have, you know, don't have any espoused. The good news, the good news is that people are still responding, though, to a gospel of love and grace, Brad.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:14:23]:

Yeah.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:14:23]:

Let me say that again. People are still responding. I know this even in— I shouldn't say even in D.C. I spent a lot of time living in D.C. as well as Indiana's home for me, us now. But I'm working with some young interns now who are from different places, some who are from D.C., and I'm inspired because people are still responding to a gospel of love that couples itself with justice for our neighbors or justice for others.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:14:54]:

Okay.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:14:54]:

There's no reason whatsoever for us to be having curable diseases continue to make a comeback in the United States or people and children to be dying overseas that previously were not dying before we cut off international aid. Much of the international aid— let me say this too, Brad— was supported by U.S. farmers who were able to use some of those extra produce or produce that we could, that we could, what you call it, export.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:15:32]:

Yeah.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:15:32]:

As part of, as part of international aid programs. So, so, you know, soybean and wheat and rice and these, and these products that, that we are able to produce in abundance, cornmeal that we were able to, we are able to produce in abundance. You know, some of that's being destroyed and wasted. And now the farmers have to be subsidized or lots of farmers, family farmers in Midwest farming states have been filing bankruptcy because of tariffs and poor, poor leadership. So the reflect— going back to the reflecting pool, I said reflecting pool is a metaphor for the reflection of a lot of incompetence. And I also call, you know, just the demise of a compassionate approach to democracy.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:16:28]:

Yeah.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:16:29]:

But I do believe we have a firm reliance, as the division— as the Declaration says, on divine providence. God has said that the righteous shall not be forsaken. Psalm 11 says, if the foundation be destroyed, what shall the righteous do? At the end of that Psalm, it says, God upholds the just. Yeah.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:16:50]:

Well, let me just—

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:16:50]:

So we should stay on the course.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:16:52]:

Let me reflect with you on a couple of things, and then I'd like you to kind of wrap us up with your thoughts about what's encouraging, as you always do. But I'm in alignment with your thinking that there's many people, including young people, who are spiritually oriented, They do think about God. They do think about ultimate things. They do think about how people are treated. They think about moral things, but they also have seen too much of the church not speaking to those things. And so they have a sensibility that says, okay, I've seen that, I've done that, and I reject that, meaning the church. However, they are leaning into what you said about love and grace, and so there's a bit of a chasm Between the, what many people still espouse and what the church is offering, especially as people become more and more aware of Christian nationalism. I just talked to a good friend of mine a couple days ago, and our conversations about how he and his wife are leaving one denomination and exploring another denomination because they were experiencing this Christian nationalism thing that was going on in the church they were attending.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:18:01]:

Mm-hmm.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:18:01]:

And they just couldn't take it any longer, especially because it was abusive to people in their life, their family, and this type of thing. So I'd just like you to speak about that in terms of what do you see as encouraging signs to kind of bridge that gap there? What are some encouraging things that you see as we celebrate? And I want to say we do celebrate the 250th anniversary of our country. There's much more to celebrate than to be upset about. But what's your take on this as you bring us home about what is encouraging to Bishop Julius C. Trimble today?

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:18:37]:

Well, I happen to be United Methodist, and it's not a part— I'm not part of a perfect church. We've been on both sides of history, the right side and the wrong side of history. But I do believe that the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice, and it requires people who actually love God so much that we're willing to, you know, with our own scars and our own stories, to trudge on— not trudge on, but to struggle on for justice for all people. You know, I believe that love is not just something that happens to people. Love is something that transforms societies and worlds and communities and homes. And, you know, I think it's imperative for us not to accept a government or a society, Brad, that somehow allows us to put people in categories of being lesser than.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:19:41]:

Yeah.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:19:42]:

United Methodist Church shall confront and eliminate racism, whether it's in organizations or individuals, in every facet of life or society. and at large. And racism and xenophobia, which is, you know, broadly defined as the fear of others—

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:19:58]:

Right.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:19:58]:

—that are different, is so pervasive that it's been used to convince people somehow that they are not loved enough. So I think we can really, you know, we can continue to not only, you know, I believe in the possibility of a better, more perfect union.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:20:21]:

Yes.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:20:22]:

United States. And I declare that we are a multiracial, multicultural society. Just look at the music and look at the entertainment, look at the sports and look at the FIFA that's going on, the FIFA that's taking place now that we're a major host of this world soccer, that millions of people— this is the— more people are watching this than anything that is that has ever happened in the United States because it's globally being followed right now.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:20:52]:

Sure.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:20:54]:

The World Soccer Championship. So I'm an optimist, but I'm a Christian optimist in the sense that I believe that it requires us to be committed to prayer, but also committed to say, you know, it's unacceptable for us to create spaces for people to let hate to fester. Yeah. So, so, you know, well, if you know, I'm expecting Brad Miller to stand against the Patriot Front and the Christian nationalism, just like me as a person of color stand against it, because I love Brad Miller. And I know that he loves— you love the same Jesus that I love.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:21:30]:

Absolutely.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:21:30]:

But my expectations, I have high regard both not only for the words of the Constitution and for the promise of America, but for the people who, like myself, you know, profess to be followers of Jesus. I by no means am I, uh, I, I'm moving on towards perfection, if you will, like everybody else.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:21:51]:

Uh, sounds like a good question.

 

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:21:54]:

I haven't earned any trophies on how good, how good of a Christian I've been, but I do believe that, uh, you know, truth, truth belongs to the to the people. And that, you know, it's— I'll keep repeating what I heard one of my colleagues from Indiana say some time ago, that we cannot transform the world simply by going to church, but we can transform the world by being the church.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:22:20]:

Oh, awesome. Well, thank you for sharing here today. Love that final comment. We can transform the world not by going to church, but by being the church. And there's so much to, to say about that. Well, it's been a pleasure being with you and to celebrate this 250th anniversary birthday of our country as we unpack some of the difficult issues and some of the possibilities. And we always love to hear your insights. He is Bishop Julius C.

 

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller [00:22:49]:

Trimble, and this is the To Be and Do podcast. I'm your co-host, Reverend Dr. Brad Miller. And we'll see you next time here on this podcast where we look to offer an encouraging word to an often discouraged world.