War Is Not the Answer: Faith and Peace in Troubled Times

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:00]:

Hello again, good people. Dr. Brad Miller here on the To Be Encouraged podcast with Bishop Julius C. Trimble. This is the podcast where we look to offer an encouraging word to an often discouraged world from the man who says that his mission in life is to encourage 2 million people. So Bishop Treble, welcome to our conversation where we're gonna try to encourage some people listening to our voices, even in a time when there is a war going on. So how you doing, my friend?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:37]:

Doing great. Marvin Gaye, the great R&B singer, soul singer, said in one of the lyrics of his song, what's going on is war is not the answer.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:50]:

Oh my gosh.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:51]:

And he emphasized in that song that really love and peace and harmony is what we really need. And when I think of Bread about this current war in Iran that President Donald Trump essentially decided to initiate, and I don't know all the backdoor politics or the open-door politics or front-door politics related to Israel and so forth. Nonetheless, we do know that there was there was a tremendous amount of bombing initiated by the United States against Iran. And most recently, hearing the news a few days ago about a missile strike on a school that killed 100 girls. So war is just a terrible thing, Brad. And just to talk about that in the context of how do we encourage each other and what should we be praying about, I think it's appropriate for us to have that conversation.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:01:51]:

Yeah, well, let's just kind of start where it started for me at least. What was your kind of your visceral gut-level reaction when you first heard that after all the talk about this building up to a war, it actually happened and we actually, with really no provocation that I could see, we started bombing Iran? What was your first level in your heart and your gut when you heard about this?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:02:20]:

Well, it seems like, I used to think it wasn't true, but I'm convinced that there's always, for a certain portion of the population and people in power, an insatiable appetite to be in violent conflict with others. So I think maybe it's part of our geopolitical history, but is this about Is this about controlling oil? Is this about regime changes? And is this about we're supposed to be saving lives by destroying lives? But I've said something before that whenever bombs drop, whether they're in Ukraine or in Gaza or in Congo or Somalia or Sudan, whenever bombs drop, children die.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:03:12]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:03:12]:

And no one has refuted that point from me. And Martin Luther King Jr., and I think others have said this since then, is we have smart bombs but dumb policy.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:03:27]:

Wow. Wow, wow, what a powerful thing. I had not heard that for a long time, but how applicable to the situation we're in. I know I just had just my own feeling was just a sickening visceral almost sick to my stomach feeling when I heard about this. And I just kind of helped feeling that there is evil in the world. I just felt like that. I just had that feeling. And so I needed to go.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:00]:

You heard that saying, Brad, about self-fulfilling prophecy?

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:04:04]:

Oh yeah.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:05]:

When Pete Heg said, or whoever decided, said, "We are now gonna call it the Department of War." Oh my gosh. "That's what it was called when George Washington was president, the Department of War." I said, "Okay." Here we go. "I bet your bottom dollar that within 12 months we'll be at war." And sure enough.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:04:27]:

I felt the same way. And so we are in the middle of it. As you said, when war happens, a lot of things get broken, buildings get destroyed, but mostly people are destroyed. And always innocents are destroyed as well in the supposedly what they sometimes call collateral damage, which I hate that term because we're talking about real human life. And not only, you know, you mentioned about the bombing of a school with children in it and other people involved, but you know, we lost our own service people. Yes. We've got a bunch of people, a dozen or more of our own people who've been You have, you got to say the number was, yeah, as of yesterday it was up to 13.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:14]:

And that's the ones that we're acknowledging.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:05:17]:

And many, many, many more, like well over 100 injured and so on.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:22]:

Injured, yeah.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:05:23]:

And I got a feeling those numbers, you know, are conservative, that we've got more people injured and just that type of thing. So, but that's your feelings.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:33]:

You know, we're both, Yeah, we're both United Methodist bred, and here's some of what we say in our Book of Resolutions as well as our social principles. We say that the church deplores war and all other forms of violent conflict and urges the peaceful settlement of all disputes. We yearn for the day when there will be no more war and people will live together in peace and justice. We reject the use of war as an instrument of foreign policy and insist that every peaceful diplomatic means of resolution be exhausted before the start of armed conflicts. So my question is, do we really believe that every effort of peaceful settlement has been extended? Because if it's about Iran not having a nuclear weapon, which a year ago they said they had already bombed and destroyed.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:06:33]:

Obliterate them was the word that was used, obliterated.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:06:36]:

Yeah. So what are we to believe? Some people say, is this about something other than the war? Is it about just controlling of land? Is it about—

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:06:50]:

Well, I think there are people arguing that—

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:06:53]:

The wishes of another country? You know, I—

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:06:57]:

Yeah, well, people talk about, you know, is Israel involved with this? And people talk about the coverup of the Epstein files, all kinds of things going on here. But what we do know, I think, you know, what you said there about all options being looked into before war as a last resort, this was not the last resort, as we said in our Book of Resolutions, and certainly a basis of American policy throughout most of my lifetime has been similar. You don't start wars, you kind of react. Maybe you finish them.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:07:39]:

Yeah, you have the right to defend yourself. If someone breaks in your house, you have the right to defend yourself.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:07:45]:

It seemed like this time war War was not the last resort. It was a first response almost. And that's what's so sickening about it. So Bishop, what do you think? Is that Book of Resolutions— do we just throw that out the window? What do we do as you and I are United Methodist clergy? We are responsible to believers in local churches and really to greater extent to be a voice of advocacy for the gospel of Jesus Christ in the communities that we reside in and connected up to. I know you travel around the country and the world, you know, making connections with people regarding civil and human rights and other aspects of life. What do we say? Are we throwing out the Book of Resolutions? What do we do on here? What's going on? What's your take on this?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:33]:

Well, you know, I will admit that, you know, this has been something I've really been deeply prayerful about, particularly because we're in the Lenten season leading up to the death and resurrection. The Passion of Christ. And some can argue, Brad, rightfully so, that the Bible is full of war and there have been just wars to prevent further disaster. The book of Ecclesiastes, you know this by heart, there's a time for everything.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:09:11]:

Yes, and it does say a time for war and time for peace right there, doesn't it?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:09:15]:

Yeah, a time for loving and a time for hating. A time for war and a time for peace. And under everything, you know, there's a time for everything. But Paul says in the book of Romans, if possible, to the best of your ability, listen to this, if possible, to the best of our ability, we should live at peace with all people. I think that's a pretty strong theological, and I would call it a good foundational statement for a democratic, a government that really wants to be a world leader in terms of doing the just and right thing. If possible, to the best of your ability, live at peace with all people. Now, some—

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:10:02]:

I think some people would argue that we have done everything. I don't think I would argue that, but some people are arguing if possible. Well, it's not possible, so on, they might say. But how do we come to terms with this? We've got what Ecclesiastes says in the Old Testament, Old Testament. And my wife's been reading the Old Testament here recently, and she was saying to me, "Wow, there's all these stories of death and destruction and war in the Old Testament." And there's a lot of that, of course. And then we have words of Paul, of course Jesus, and we have the "Blessed are the peacemakers" from the Beatitudes. How do we come to terms with the biblical text here in terms of applying it to this situation that we're in war right now?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:10:47]:

I think we need to still hold on to hope and that the aspirational nature of God's will being done. The prophet Isaiah says that God will judge between nations, you know, and it's an aspirational passage when you read Isaiah 2:4, 'cause, you know, it predicts, you know, that eventually they will beat their swords into plowshares, their spears into pruning hooks. Then it says, you know, nation will not take up sword against nation and study war no more. Very aspirate, but the prophet is saying that the will of God is not that we destroy each other. You know, an eye for an eye, where does that leave us?

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:11:26]:

Blind. But there's both of us blind, you know, but that's what it leaves us.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:11:32]:

And so I think even in the Old Testament, while the nation, you know, the notion of conquering and being delivered to the the promised land, it seems like a security route through a lot of death and destruction. But Jesus is pretty consistent, I think, around, he says, I say to you, love your enemies, pray for those who harass you, those who hate you. So Jesus kind of brings us around and says, yes, all of this war and destruction, but I have not come that you do war. Jesus said, I've come that you might have life. Have it more abundantly. Sure. So I'm a stickler for the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus says, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." So I would argue, Brad, that we can't really be the children of God and be proponents of war. And hear me now, I have a number of family members, and I bet you do too, who have served in the military, some who are in it.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:12:37]:

My son-in-law, is an Air Force veteran, my brother retired Army reservist. So I know I had uncles who served in the military. I'm not against the soldiers who, because they promised to protect the Constitution, Brad, but I don't think that all of the actions that our president has taken have little to do with protecting the Constitution.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:13:10]:

I think what you're talking about here is real life, real people are being affected by this. I have a nephew who serves on an aircraft carrier that may be deployed to that part of the world, and he's standing by waiting for that word one way or another. And that makes it very real to me and to all of us. And you said, I forget who it was, was Al Green who says, war is not the answer. Who was that? Who was that?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:35]:

Marvin Gaye.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:13:36]:

Marvin Gaye. Marvin Gaye. Marvin Gaye, one of my favorites from back in the early '70s. And a war is not the answer. But apparently Jesus is the answer from what you said a minute ago. Jesus is the answer.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:52]:

I don't know who said this quote, "We teach what we most need to learn." And we've said this before too, we can't proclaim that we love God whom we have not seen and yet we hate our neighbors who we see every day, or we hate our neighbors because their skin color is different or they speak a different language, or they don't worship to the same God or to God the same way that we do. And we somehow decide, well, these folks deserve to be destroyed. Now, I'm pro-Israel being able to defend itself. I'm pro the United States being able to defend itself. And I would certainly not support any nation or people who says that another nation or another group of people wishes death upon them. So I like to quote it. I think we stay in the safe zone as followers of Jesus when we quote Jesus who says, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." And we are the children of God because that's who we are. Who God has called us to be.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:15:06]:

But that means we must really invest in the work of reconciliation, the work of respectful conversation. Was it, I think John Wesley said, "We need not all think alike, but we could love alike." And so maybe I'm being Pollyannish or whatever they call it.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:15:27]:

Well, I think maybe we need a little bit of, a higher vision, a higher calling that some may call Pollyannish, but I think we need a greater vision, a bigger vision.