Peacemakers Needed: Responding to Gun Violence and Polarization with Hope

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:00]:

Hello good people, and welcome to the To Be in Courage podcast with Bishop Julius C. Trimble. I am your co host, Reverend Dr. Brad Miller, and this is the podcast where we look to offer an encouraging word to an often discouraged world. And Bishop Trimble, we've had unfortunately some discouraging things regarding political violence that's happened and our culture recently. And so let's just go from there. Tell us to set the stage for what has been going on and your take on it now.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:34]:

It seems like a virus that was already a pandemic, global pandemic states is really uniquely a U.S. cultural, cultural health issue. And that's gun violence that seems to be raging with the recent shooting of Charles Charlie Kirk. And that same day later there was a school shooting. It seems as though we are almost.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:01:03]:

And not long ago there was a shooting of a congresswoman and her husband in Minnesota and school shooting there in Minnesota. They're happening seemingly every week, you know, maybe even more often than that.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:01:15]:

Yeah, violence seems to be, and gun violence seems to be almost a daily news story. But it's not just a news story. Families are devastated. And while I didn't agree with the politics of Charlie Kirk, I certainly, you know, grieve for his family and for those thousands of other people that, you know, we want, we don't know their names who also lost their lives during course of 24 hours. In the United States, there are more guns than people in our country.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:01:52]:

Brad, isn't that, isn't that incredible? That is just ridiculous. It is just ridiculous. You know, it breaks my heart. You know, there's several things that break my heart and with some of the things we've had conversations about, but the proliferation of guns. And I see them, it seems like I just see them more often just out in public, you know, people carrying sidearms and things like this that I just seem to see a lot more often than, than I used to, including folks that don't look like they would normally have carried guns. You know, just, they just don't have that. They've older women, for instance, and you know, people who just looks like they. I wouldn't have seen that not too long ago, but please go on.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:02:35]:

What's your, what's your gut reaction to all this? So what are you, what are you feeling in your soul about this terrible tragedy has happened and some of so much of it happens in public, you know, so many cameras and so on. Yeah, I know this killing of Charles Kirk, Charlie Kirk was witnessed by many, many people in person. And I have not seen it myself, but I know it exists on the Internet. You know, the actual, you can see the actual, you know, goryness of the killing happening there. And I know. Give me your give your, give your reaction.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:03:07]:

Well, people are traumatized for, for every shooting. Some say, you know, that impacts anywhere from six to 25 other people, including family, friends and people who witness shootings, as in this case. And you know, it's a sad commentary if we are now at a point in our society where political discourse or difference of opinion can be a major contributing factor to violence.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:03:37]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:03:37]:

I don't know, I don't know all the background to what, what prompted the shooter, but I do know that we are currently in a, an environment that after the shootings, people are attending. People who have a public, who have a public platform often tend to point fingers and sometimes it seems to be a partisan thing, you know.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:03:58]:

Yeah.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:00]:

Liberals are responsible for this or those on the radical right or the radical left. And I am just convinced, Brad, that God is not pleased at all. Oh, of course, Cannot be pleased.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:04:13]:

Of course not.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:14]:

The way in which we, we have what, 340 something million people, I believe in the United states and over 400 plus million guns. Some say that that's an understatement. And every time there's a shooting like this shooting, they say that, that gun sales go up.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:04:32]:

Oh, of course, 48 hours. Yeah. You could almost feel the tensions rising, the heat going up that, you know, that someone's out there is going to, you know, try to take a reprisal or revenge somewhere that they are at least the girls crossing their mind. But I like to throw something else out to you about this whole violence thing just for us to think about. You know, we got this kind of, this political stuff and that kind of thing going on as a part of it, the siloing that happening and people, us and them. But I read, I was talking about this with a colleague of mine in the podcasting world just this morning a little bit and he pointed me a couple books, resources. But basically a lot of many of these shooters are young white men who are lost and searching for meaningfulness. And they're, and they, sometimes they're jobless and sometimes they are dot com.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:05:25]:

You know, they're lonely, they're upset, they're without direction and they're finding some solace in online stuff and some extremist kind of things where they find some connection to community and sometimes those things lead them to, you know, be radicalized in some form or another. And so this. The premise of what this friend of mine was pointing me to is that it's not always the political thing. It's just people searching for meaningfulness in community and they're finding it in some violent places. I just want to throw that out to you. What do you think? Do you think there's anything to this kind of this?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:56]:

I think people, yeah, people are finding a way to be heard and this is a destructive way for that to happen. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush because stereotypes are not helpful, but often, you know, there's. There's sometimes a reflection on the whole notion of the gaming society. You may be even familiar with that. But even a lot of the gaming, in terms of folks who are. Who, you know, spend a lot of times with, with controllers in their hand and competing in some of the games are pretty, pretty violent. And we've kind of built into our society this notion that there's a casual way to. To relate to violence without that somehow poisoning our.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:06:47]:

Our spirit. Theologically. I think our theology really needs to step up as well. I just was introduced recently. You may be familiar with the Croatian theologian Miroslav Vol.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:07:00]:

I am, but please go on.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:07:03]:

He studied under Moatman, but he says theology is not only about understanding the world, but it's about mending the world. And so, Brad, part of our. Our. My goal is to encourage 2 million people to be participants in mending the world. Not just talking about the travesties, not just talking about the faults of history, not just talking about arguing about what constitutes truth. But how do we participate, those of us who are followers of Christ and believe in a God of love, how do we participate both in our theology, our thinking and our actions in mending the world?

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:07:46]:

Because on the other side of the.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:07:47]:

Peacemakers, blessed are the peacemakers, not the. Not the mass shooters. The Bible doesn't say, blessed are those who. Who carry out assassinations or who carry out murder. But blessed are the peacemakers. In fact, in Proverbs 6 says there are six things that God hates. Yes, here's what it says. In Proverbs 6, verse 16.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:10]:

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to God, a haughty eye, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that hurry to run to evil, a lying witness who testifies falsely, and one who sows discord in the family. It troubles me. I don't. I don't. Well, I don't relate at all to the politics at least a little bit that I know about Charlie Kirk and that I have heard. But I certainly don't believe that his politics or even his insults or anybody's insults or whatever that I might find offensive warrant this kind of action. Nor do I believe that the people whose who are not as famous or will not be lifted up in the same way that he has been deserve what has happened. I have no room in my heart to hate anybody.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:09:13]:

You don't have to be my best friend for me not to certainly consider you an enemy that's worthy of me feeling somehow anyway justified to commit violence towards you or any other person. There's a thin, the same theologian says, Miroslav Volv says there's a thin but zealous practice of Christian faith that likely fosters violence. But there's a thick and connected practice of Christian faith that can generate and sustain a culture of peace. That if we just want to, you know, I think that's part of the fallacy. I find with at least the notion of Christian nationalism. There's this, there's, there's this zealous, zealous about it that often links itself with an understanding that violence is okay. But if we really take our faith seriously, we've got to embrace the demand from Jesus Christ that we be peace builders and peacemakers.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:10:16]:

Yes, indeed. And so much of what we hear around this violent violence rhetoric is a language like retribution, revenge, bloodshed, things like that. That's, that's very, very prevalent. And what you hear in the rhetoric and the propaganda, I would say, from many people, including people who profess to be Christians. And I find that so incredibly troubling. And I'm just having a hard time, Bishop, coming to terms that that is anywhere in the Christian thinking, anywhere even close, it's not there. And so help us sort it out. You've mentioned here about this theologian and about this mending that needs to take place.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:11:02]:

If there's mending that needs to take place, that means things have been rendered apart as well. So what are some actions do you think that we can take as Christians, as churches, as men and women of faith who have a faith that is believers in this crisis? You said the peace builder. What are some things we can do in a practical manner in our churches or communities or when we know somebody who is violent or has leaning towards violence, or maybe they have a gun and maybe they shouldn't have a gun for mental health reasons or any anything else? What are some things that we can do about it?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:11:38]:

I think we need to be interrupters of. Of violence. And I think we need to be interrupters of isolation as well. Years ago, when there was this major heat wave in Chicago, if you remember, is happening many places, so many people died.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:11:56]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:11:56]:

And when they did, when they did the social autopsy of that heat wave, they found out a lot of the seniors that died were because of living a life of isolation.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:12:06]:

Yeah.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:12:07]:

I think that the church really needs to be the church for others, and not only just the Christian faith, but all of us who profess a faith of any kind. Most religions espouse a commitment to peace and to respect, not to violence. And I think we need to denounce violence, but also recognize that we've got to be able to engage each other on the level of human dignity. If, if somehow I can determine that someone is less than human, then then violence becomes more acceptable towards that person. But.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:12:49]:

Yeah. Well, let me respond to you there in this way that it seems like if we're going to be building things up, that we need to find ways to help be literally live out in a very tangible way to love your neighbor as yourself. That is the isolation you mentioned is. I believe that's a cause of this violent acting out. Then we need as a church and as Christians to literally, literally be checking on our neighbors and others to be helpful instead of hurtful and to be connected instead of disconnected. And seems to me the church. This is a great place for the church to step in. Do you think so maybe we can be a part of a solution rather than being, in some cases a part of the problem.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:34]:

I think, I think by definition, you know, as a colleagues several years ago heard say, we cannot transform the world, Brett, by simply going to church or attending churches, but we can transform the world by being the church.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:13:49]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:49]:

And I believe when we, when we really exegete that, if you will, when we extrapolate from that, from that common. It's more than a cliche. Being the church literally means being the love of Jesus in real time, in real places. And I think that's part of the message that Jesus was sharing in the story of the Good Samaritan. It's not about the differences that we have, but about our willingness to see the pain and the need of others and to be able to share the resources that we have with others. There's so much need for addressing mental health in our country, but also there's a need for addressing mutual respect.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:14:30]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:14:31]:

If we start from a place of mutual respect. I respect you because you are a child of God. You are a human being and we belong to the human family, then I don't have to diminish my own self or my own self respect. It troubles me, Brad, even to read in the paper today about notions of civil war, that on Twitter after Charlie Kirk's murder, that there were thousands of hits or thousands of mention of civil war.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:15:03]:

Yeah.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:15:03]:

And you know what troubles me? Civil war, that literally, I think translates, means that. That neighbors or citizens would be at war with each other.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:15:13]:

Yeah. And so much, and so much of this happens in a reactionary way. You know, something, this act of violence happens, and I felt it myself, I felt anger rise up in me when something violent act has happened. You. And that goes to that, that kind of. That feeling of, you know, revenge and retribution and things like. Like that, which are ugly, ugly thoughts. But so much of this has been happening without even knowing the facts, without.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:15:39]:

Without even knowing anything really about what happened other than that a tragedy happened and people would have respond. And I find it interesting that, you know, some people, when they wanted to respond immediately and could categorize the shooter and the kill, the killers as a certain type of people or a certain religious background or a certain ethnic background or a certain approach to life and didn't pay any attention to the facts when there weren't any facts available and then kind of changed their tune when they found out it wasn't what they assumed it would be. A lot of assumptions being made here, my friend. And you know what happens when you assume, right? When you assume.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:16:15]:

Absolutely, I do know what happens.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:16:17]:

Yeah. A lot of assuming is going on and the people acting violently on those assumptions.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:16:23]:

Yeah. But at the end of the day, somebody's father or somebody's mother or somebody's child is dead. And you know, sometimes I say, so what if. So what if we know who. Who or why a person does something like that? That, you know, my mother, my parents used to teach us. You were taught the same thing. Two wrongs or three wrongs don't make a right.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:16:44]:

Sure, absolutely.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:16:45]:

Even when we see the tragedy and I think the devastation that continues to happen in Gaza, people say, don't you? Well, remember October, October 7th? I said, yeah. And then there was something before that and there was something before that, There was something before that. An eye for an eye. Then we end up, we're all in the blind.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:17:04]:

Well, when has violence really ultimately worked in terms of, you know, creating peace? I don't. Maybe it has, perhaps, but it seems to me that violence often, more often than not, leads to more violence. And you Got to break a pattern here. And I think Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And others have stepped forward to, you know, offer peace, you know, very, very, you know, the peace with justice in terms of, you know, putting yourself on peaceful movements. And it seemed like the time has come for those who are peace lovers and lovers of Jesus Christ and lovers of moral morality to step forward and say, okay, enough's enough. And we, in a peaceful, non violent way are going to, you know, stand in the gap here and to be a part of things.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:17:52]:

I know, I know some clergy here in Indiana, where you and I live at. I know you're in D.C. right now, but you live here much of the time in Indiana. Went to one of the places where refugees are being held. And I have some, my own pastor and some others went to, to speak out against that. And there was a little bit of pushback, but they made a statement that is just not right for people to be held in detention centers without their due process and so on for simply being an immigrant. And I love that. And I just think it's going to take more of that.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:18:24]:

I don't know. I just want to put that out there. What do you think? Do you think the time is here for church and others to be more and more involved with nonviolent efforts to.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:18:33]:

Absolutely, absolutely. And I had a colleague who used to say years ago, he said it's all about relationships. Yeah, we cannot, we cannot build a better society if we're not willing to really engage in relationships. I think part of Charlie Kirk's modus operandi was around debating, creating atmospheres for debate. But I think we need something other than just debates. I think we really need an opportunity for us to serve together in places where we're building, where we are engaged in mission, we're engaged in acts of mercy and acts of justice that foster inclusion as opposed to division. In the Bible, 1st John 3:15, everyone who hates his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:19:25]:

So there's no blessing for those who would choose to commit murder. And most of the murders that take place, the gun violence that takes place is not in defense of one or protecting one's home or protecting oneself. Most of it are homicides and suicides. In fact, we have a higher rate of gun violence than India, which has 1.4 billion people, in China or 1.5 billion and China, the both of those countries have built over a billion citizens. We have 345 million and we have twice the death rate of countries that have three times, four times the population that we have in the United States, far fewer guns. And literally many of these places, there's no access for private citizens to have assault weapons, which. Which you can re. You can.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:20:27]:

You can secure a weapon in the United States easier than you can secure some medications for allergies. Oh, yeah.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:20:35]:

Easier to get a gun license than a driver's license in many cases, and that's ridiculous. But also goes. It shows here about how there are so many people who are distraught and upset and, you know, suicidal rates, the suicide rates, as you mentioned, are. Are skyrocketing. And that just shows kind of a corporate mental health crisis or that is going on. And therefore, I believe it's also a spiritual crisis that's going on that people are claiming they know the Lord and claiming they know that that drives them, but really they're being driven by, it seems to me, something far apart from that. And if we can somehow reconnect to our love of Jesus Christ, the love, the Prince of peace, and also then live that out through. Not only through our churches, but through our churches that go out into the communities and then be caring about these people with mental health conditions and so on, we got to be on the march, we got to be on the move.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:21:36]:

We got to be engaged, and we can. Complacency. There's no place for it anymore. That's kind of my soapbox there. Do you have any?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:21:44]:

Well, I think. Yeah, Brad, I think once we have lost the notion that life, that the sacred nature of life is such that we have no ground to stand on, to claim that we have the right or the authority to interrupt the sacred nature of life, to interrupt God's natural intention for people to lie, to live. And we can live amidst differences and even disagreement. And I would dare say we need not elevate our vitriol to such a way that we now feel that the next step is some kind of opportunity to commit violence against another human being. We must be committed to being people of peace and also promoting. Promoting the kind of respect and love for human dignity and human life that we want for ourselves. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And I believe that we don't just need a leader.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:22:54]:

We need leadership across the society because this is. This is a national health crisis, if you ask me. The notion of violence and the rhetoric of violence, that's what. That is what troubles me, Brad, in terms of what the data is saying about Twitter feeds as well as people on social media, the kind of rhetoric that is being promoted that basically said justifies this kind of violence, justifies that.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:23:27]:

Well, let's bring this around this way, Bishop Trimble. Our conversation today here has been framed in violence and murder, and we or that's precipitated our conversation here about gun violence and so on. It is incredibly depressing and incredibly discouraging. And yet I got a feeling, because I know you to be basically an optimistic person, to be a person who really in the deals with the tragedy at hand, doesn't sweep it under the rug, but also is looking for signs of encouragement, signs of light in the midst of darkness. So if you don't mind, let's go there for a minute. What do you see in some encouraging signs? What are some points of light in the midst of all this violence that we've been speaking about here today? What do you see that's encouraging at all?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:24:19]:

Well, I'm encouraged that the fact that I'm encouraged that those of us who have any platform are inclined to really put a message of hope and respect and to amplify that message of hope, respect, certainly prayers for those who have lost life and the families who are impacted by violence, but also engage in the kind of relationship building across theological and religious lines, across cultural and racial lines that allows for that opportunity for us to really say, build the kind of world that we want to see happen. That was part of the reason that after World War II and what we've seen, even though it's not a perfect institution, the notion behind the United Nations, Brad, was that countries would come from all across the globe together and try to solve problems that really allow for countries to live in peace and individual societies to thrive without violence. That's an elementary explanation of the notion behind the United nations, the fact that we are to be united and recognize that we can thrive in our various countries and still address issues like global hunger, global violence, global migration, and recognize that we should be doing that not in isolation. So I'm a firm believer that many of the signs of hope that I have seen, particularly when I talk with the younger people, I'll have a chance later this month to speak at one of our seminaries in Wesley seminary in Washington, D.C. and I'm always encouraged by people who are still studying and committed to the way of peace. Yes, the way of Christ.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:26:14]:

And it sound like you, you're encouraged, but there are people who are, yeah, they may be dismayed by what is happening, but they are not going to be beaten down or they're not quitting. Are they. And that's. That, that. That's awesome. I. And I think it's just going to take a very powerful investment of the church and of the civil, private sector and government sector in order to rebuild very intentionally, peace. I just thinking even historically, after World War II and even Vietnam War, our country, both nationally and economically and even inter.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:26:47]:

Socially invested greatly in rebuilding Europe and rebuilding Japan, rebuilding Vietnam, rebuilding Korea and those, all those countries are all pretty strong and relatively strong allies. The United States now, because we invested in them. Why can't we do something internally to invest in the mental health of our country? Invest in life, not in death and destruction. Invest in that which is good. And I just kind of think that would be kind of a biblical investment too, in a better, A better world. So. Well, basically, what you give is kind of a final word. You usually have something that's on your heart and mind that you want to share, kind of as a good word to send out, particularly perhaps to that pastor or that person who's dealing with something, maybe even in their own home or church or situation where they've got some challenging people or situations to deal with, maybe even involving people with violent rhetoric.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:27:40]:

I think we should never grow weary in our well doing. The book of Galatians speaks of that. Let us not grow weary in well doing. And I would say to all of us, for me, as a parent of adult children and a grandparent, I want to leave the world better for my grandchildren than what I'm experiencing, what I see now. I want them to know my grandchildren. I want my granddaughter and our grandchildren to know that the way of love and the way of peace is not a way of weakness, but a way of strength. I want those who preach and those who teach to know that the way of education and engagement and honoring the contributions of all people is a way of strength, not a way of weakness.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:28:32]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:28:32]:

And that God did not create us and then say that creation is good for us, then to live as though creation is somehow to be always at odds with one another. I love that there's nothing like the joy of knowing that not only are you loved, but that you have the capacity to love and bring peace in the lives of other people. If you are an opportunity, have an opportunity to preach or to teach or to engage people at the workplace. Bring with you a sense of I see you, I honor you, I respect you.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:29:14]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:29:15]:

We don't have to engage. We don't have to engage in debate. And then even when we do engage in debate, we need not be defined by our politics, but by our personhood. We need not be defined by our tribal allegiance, but by the fact that we're all part of the human family. And if we can do that, we can recognize that there is a more excellent way.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller [00:29:43]:

Well, I love to hear that. I'm just watching hearing you say, as we kind of bring this conversation to a close, is the way of love, the way of Jesus, if you will, is a way of strength, not weakness. And that is an encouraging word. Thank you, Bishop, for sharing that encouraging word with us here today. And you've been listening to the To Be Encouraged podcast with Bishop Julius C. Tribble. This is the podcast where we look to offer an encouraging word to an often discouraged world.