Episode 97
Lent Book Study Part 3 of "Multiplying Love" by Paul W. Chilcote
Bishop Julius C. Trimble is the Resident Bishop of the Indiana Area of the United Methodist Church.
Bishop Trimble has the personal mission to encourage all people with the love of Jesus Christ to rise to their highest potential. It is his commitment to his personal mission that led Bishop Trimble to create the “To Be Encouraged” Podcast along with co-host Rev.Dr. Brad Miller.
Bishop Trimble says, “I am compelled by Jesus to share with you an encouraging word or two about Jesus, theology, the Bible, the pandemic, the environment, racism, voting rights, human sexuality, and the state of the United Methodist Church.”
To Be Encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble is to be published weekly and is available at www.tobeencouraged.com and all the podcast directories.
https://www.inumc.org/bishop/office-of-the-bishop/
Episode 098 is the recording of Bishop Trimble live teaching on the book "Multiplying Love A Vision of United Methodist Life Together" By Dr. Paul W. Chilcote. This podcast was recorded live on March 17, 2024 and is the third of a four part Lenten Book study.
https://www.cokesbury.com/Multiplying-Love
Register for Upcoming Live Teaching by Bishop Trimble on the book "Mutiplying Love" over Zoom
Bishop’s Podcast:
This Lenten Book Study Podcast Recordings are available at the links below
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In this uplifting episode of the "Multiplying Love" Lenten book study, Bishop Julius C. Trimble leads an engaging discussion on Chapters 5 and 6 of Paul Chilcote's book "Multiplying Love: A Methodist Renewal for Discipleship, Mission, and Community."
The conversation kicks off with a powerful reading from Colossians 3:11-15, setting the tone for exploring what it truly means to be a movement of inclusive love and grace as the church. Participants share profound insights on rediscovering the church as a loving, spirit-led movement rather than just an organized religion focused on doctrine and structure.
Drawing from sobering statistics, the group wrestles with the hard truth that many unchurched Americans view Christianity today as more about organized religion than loving God and neighbor. This sparks a poignant dialogue on how the church can better embody and convey the generous, benevolent love of God.
In a moving moment, Rev. Dr. Michael Cartwright offers a heartfelt confession, reflecting on his early ministry years and the need to prioritize "being with" over just "doing for." His vulnerability reminds us all of the transformative power of abiding in Christ's love through authentic relationships.
The discussion then turns to John 15:4-10, the powerful vine and branches analogy, leading to insights on the church's calling to be a community that radiates God's inclusive love and grace to the world. Echoing Wesley's heart, there is a resounding call to be with people where they are, especially those on the margins, rather than expecting them to come to us.
Throughout, Bishop Trimble masterfully weaves in theology, personal stories, and thought-provoking questions that both challenge and inspire. The necessity of leading with humility, kindness, and a spirit of confession is emphasized as crucial for the church to truly multiply love.
By the end, it's clear this is no ordinary book study. It's a Spirit-filled rallying cry for the people called Methodists to reclaim their roots as a Christ-centered movement of unrelenting grace poured out through loving relationships and compassionate presence in the world.
Whether you're a lifelong Methodist or simply seeking to know God's love more deeply, this rich discussion will stir your heart to embrace the high calling of abiding in Christ so you can bear lasting fruit as His sent ones multiplying love.
Transcript
A little more time to bounce back.
Speaker:I hope that everyone is doing well on this,
Speaker:Sunday, wearing my green for those whose
Speaker:heritage is that and celebrating that.
Speaker:I was at a church early this morning, and they reminded me
Speaker:that I needed to come in my green. So there we
Speaker:go. I was very mindful of that, and I'm glad that they
Speaker:reminded me because that would have not been on my radar at all. So
Speaker:there's Bishop. Wonderful.
Speaker:Greetings, beloved. As we journey the Lent
Speaker:Lenten season together, may the lord be with
Speaker:you and also
Speaker:with
Speaker:Methodist
Speaker:that are joining. We have, those that are
Speaker:joining now. I was just making them aware we had a
Speaker:grand celebration for you and your upcoming
Speaker:victory lap as you pivot with passion, but yet you're still
Speaker:on the payroll now.
Speaker:I've got a few more, places to preach and,
Speaker:worship and and gather on the districts and looking
Speaker:forward to a joyous annual conference. I don't know if
Speaker:people know that any anybody and everybody who's United Methodist can
Speaker:come to annual conference. We often think of it as only for
Speaker:members of the lay members and clergy members,
Speaker:and but, really, others can come. The visitors can come
Speaker:and they'll come. And it's gonna be it's Saint Luke's in a local
Speaker:church, which we really think will be, fun,
Speaker:because we're already being a worship setting, and, they've got a
Speaker:huge parking lot that we're gonna have outdoor activity. So,
Speaker:hopefully, some of you probably come in anyway, but
Speaker:you're all welcome to come for a day or longer.
Speaker:June 6th through 8th, just in case people needed those dates. Excuse
Speaker:me. June 5th through 8th, just in case people needed those dates.
Speaker:And the registration is supposed to open here after Easter because we
Speaker:need to get to the resurrection.
Speaker:So, bishop, may I offer a word of prayer as we
Speaker:begin and, so that we're mindful of the Trimble? Because, you know,
Speaker:we're not here long. Yes. Let let let's let's
Speaker:join. Go ahead as others are joining.
Speaker:Awesome. Will you pray with me? Good
Speaker:gracious and loving god, thank you. Thank you for the beauty of
Speaker:today. Thank you for the opportunity to celebrate.
Speaker:Thank you for the connection via technology
Speaker:that binds us together as we continue to explore what it
Speaker:means to multiply multiply love in and throughout the
Speaker:United Methodist Church in Indiana and beyond. We give you thanks
Speaker:for our bishop for his participation and
Speaker:leading and leadership, not only of our conference, but at this,
Speaker:book study. And so, lord, we say speak
Speaker:or you are lit we are listening
Speaker:in Christ's name. Amen. Amen. One of
Speaker:the invitations that was extended and if anyone is on for
Speaker:the first time, we want we want you to
Speaker:join us as we continue this commitment. On page
Speaker:42 is a prayer, that I've invited
Speaker:those of us who are joining together on this Lenten study to pray,
Speaker:together. If you have your books and turn to page 42, doctor
Speaker:Fulbright has opened us with prayer, but I wanna use this more as a
Speaker:litany for a time of discussion.
Speaker:And I I did have a chance to, talk with doctor Fulbright
Speaker:before. We're gonna really Encouraged you to
Speaker:engage in, conversation for this session
Speaker:as we look at chapter 56. Am I right? 56.
Speaker:Chapter 5 really about just the notion of renewal as
Speaker:well. So on page 42,
Speaker:new every morning is your love, great god of light, and all day
Speaker:long, you are working for good in the world. Stir
Speaker:up in us desire to serve you, to live
Speaker:peacefully with our neighbors, and to to devote
Speaker:each day to your son, our savior, Jesus Christ,
Speaker:the lord. Amen.
Speaker:Paul Chilcote, unlike some Wesleyan
Speaker:theologians, is just as much a fan of Charles
Speaker:Wesley as he is John Wesley. And so
Speaker:in his writings, particularly this book,
Speaker:you will see the reference to the hymns, some of the
Speaker:hymns that that are in our hymn book, and the emphasis
Speaker:that our theology and the way in which we really live out
Speaker:being Methodist in in in in our day
Speaker:to day lives includes both the Bible, but also,
Speaker:our hymns. Some said say that our theology of what we believe
Speaker:is best expressed through our hymns, And,
Speaker:I know Tracy is a is a is a trained music
Speaker:music person, so she knows music history and and is a practitioner
Speaker:and, oh, Lord Glenn Gibson as well. And I know some of you
Speaker:others may also know this better than your bishop does. So,
Speaker:that's what I I like about Chilco's writing because I know he's just
Speaker:as much a fan of Charles as he is John C, and sometimes Charles gets
Speaker:kind of the short script, so to speak. The other thing
Speaker:is that this book was written we said this in a very
Speaker:in response to a book written in 2022 entitled Multiply
Speaker:Methodist. And I know one of the authors of that
Speaker:book, Bishop Lowry, because we were both consecrated bishop
Speaker:in the same year and had spent time in our,
Speaker:in our conferences. But we are not taking
Speaker:this, opportunity for the Lenten study to reflect on
Speaker:this affiliation or or responding to
Speaker:those who may who may have chosen Bishop affiliation or who who may
Speaker:still be desiring after general conference for more of that.
Speaker:What we're focusing on is the invitation
Speaker:to multiply love. And what does that mean for the current, and I like
Speaker:to say for the vision, which is the subtitle of the book, The Vision of
Speaker:United Methodist Life Together. So I hope our conversation
Speaker:really, can really can take further
Speaker:shape around how you feel about that. What is the vision
Speaker:for United Methodist going forward from
Speaker:your from your local church standpoint, from you as a
Speaker:leader? And maybe if you're like me, I'm a lifelong
Speaker:Methodist. Some some a lot of people are on conference or
Speaker:not. We we come from many different places. But
Speaker:what does it mean for us to to to really,
Speaker:cast and embrace a vision of United Methodist life together?
Speaker:The other thing is that I'm gonna repeat every time the the,
Speaker:what I think one is the most important pieces they read. What if the United
Speaker:Methodist Church were known for being the most loving
Speaker:church in the United States. I'm not saying that, but I'm not reading it in
Speaker:front of me now, but, I think that's that's the essence of it.
Speaker:Here it is. It's in the chat. What if the United Methodist Church if
Speaker:if that were we were really known for that, then this doesn't require us
Speaker:knocking any other denominations or even, for that matter, any other
Speaker:faith expression, but actually living out,
Speaker:at least in part, how John Wesley
Speaker:describe the character of a Methodist and how we we are embracing
Speaker:for our annual conference this year, the theme cultivating
Speaker:joy. So I really want us to connect
Speaker:with that. I'm gonna stop talking in just a minute, but I wanna turn to
Speaker:page 55, chapter 5,
Speaker:and, begin with the
Speaker:reading of Colossians 3. If you have your books turned there, if you you're
Speaker:doing it you have an electronic, version,
Speaker:or if you have your Trimble, Colossians, the New
Speaker:Testament, chapter 3 verse 11 through.
Speaker:And chapter 5 is is the opportunity before
Speaker:us, and and
Speaker:this is an opportunity for us to to hear this. In this image,
Speaker:there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised,
Speaker:barbarian, Scythian, slave, nor
Speaker:free, but Christ is all things and in all people.
Speaker:Therefore, as god's choice, holy and
Speaker:love, put on compassion, kindness,
Speaker:humility, gentleness, and patience. Be
Speaker:tolerant with each other, and if someone has
Speaker:a complaint against anyone, forgive each other
Speaker:as the lord forgave you. So also forgive
Speaker:each other.
Speaker:On page 56, writes, we don't need to make
Speaker:renewal happen. That's god's work.
Speaker:But god needs willing partners to tend the flame of the
Speaker:spirit's work. Do you want to be one
Speaker:of those partners? So let me stop
Speaker:there and, ask if there's reflection on the
Speaker:Colossians text or your reading in chapter
Speaker:5, what reflections do you have there? Of
Speaker:course, there's quite a bit in there. And, doctor Fulbright, I don't know if you
Speaker:had a follow-up prompting question that we might wanna
Speaker:engage in.
Speaker:So Bishop has asked the question, friends, based on the reading
Speaker:of Colossians 311 through 15 or your reading
Speaker:of chapter 5 in its body, what
Speaker:ahas, ouchies, or curiosities do you bring to the
Speaker:conversation today? There's a note of our Zoom etiquette. You can
Speaker:raise your digital hand, wave your physical hand, or you could put
Speaker:your comments in the chat. This is a conversation
Speaker:today, friends. So, it is hard to be in conversation
Speaker:first with someone, plural that are not in conversation with
Speaker:you. So Bishop has asked the question based on the Colossians
Speaker:text in your reading and or your reading of chapter 5,
Speaker:what curiosities, ahas, ouches do you bring to the
Speaker:conversation? I do have some promptings, but I'll
Speaker:wait.
Speaker:Welcome welcome, friends. Doctor
Speaker:Michael Cartwright, are you unmuting to share, or are you unmuted by
Speaker:accident? I do have something to
Speaker:share. Wonderful. I
Speaker:I'm a longtime admirer of, Paul Chilcot.
Speaker:He was a graduate student when I was a seminarian,
Speaker:in the late seventies, early eighties, and,
Speaker:I've read his many books with with great appreciation. And and
Speaker:this, point that he's making
Speaker:about renewable being, god's work and
Speaker:us willing partners is a important Wesleyan
Speaker:thread and one that that Paul makes in all of his books,
Speaker:but I I think it's it's a place where we've had a lot of
Speaker:Trimble in the church. If if you
Speaker:start from the premise that we've gotta get it right
Speaker:and then we can renew the church, we don't
Speaker:ever get there. It's, I
Speaker:I think Paul is is right that it's the gift of God
Speaker:that makes renewal possible, and, then we join in
Speaker:God's work. But over and over again, we,
Speaker:fuss and feud in the United Methodist Church over
Speaker:what it means for us to get it right, and we just never get
Speaker:there. C
Speaker:comments? Tracy, I think you had your hand up.
Speaker:Yeah. A part of this chapter that really, struck
Speaker:me was, where he was referencing the Lifeways
Speaker:survey and talked about the fact that 79%
Speaker:of unchurched Americans think Christianity today in America is about
Speaker:organized religion rather than about loving
Speaker:god and loving people. 86%
Speaker:believe they can have a good relationship with god without being involved in
Speaker:church. And so I think even that last
Speaker:one can have a good relationship with god.
Speaker:I I think that, you know, the message of
Speaker:this book reminds us that it's about relationship.
Speaker:Our relationship with God and our relationship with one another. What ought to be a
Speaker:relationship characterized by love? And, in
Speaker:my role, I've been reading my way through the, surgeon general
Speaker:study on the epidemic of social isolation in America.
Speaker:And and, yeah, we
Speaker:I mean, church in America could be an
Speaker:answer to so much of that epidemic. And what I really
Speaker:noted when I started reading his study was there's a portion of it early
Speaker:on where he notes places where people can connect in
Speaker:community, and the church isn't even
Speaker:identified. Mhmm. So what does that tell us
Speaker:about how America now
Speaker:views the role of church in cultivating loving community?
Speaker:We didn't even appear in the list. Wow.
Speaker:Alright. And that is so different. At least my understanding
Speaker:of of, the shaping of America,
Speaker:you know, a 100 more than a 100 years ago, and particularly,
Speaker:if you if you were to I come out of the
Speaker:historic African American culture,
Speaker:and my parents come out of an African American stream of
Speaker:Methodist, and that is so
Speaker:counts to what's what's revealed in that. In fact, the every the
Speaker:everything relative to community was centered around and
Speaker:through the church. But I do have,
Speaker:family members, including, at least one of my children at
Speaker:one point, basically asked a question, that I think that he he asked later,
Speaker:and and that is why should anyone bother to be a Christian,
Speaker:period. And I I realized,
Speaker:friends, that I pretty much was not for years. I was
Speaker:handed handed faith and handed the church.
Speaker:You know, it was kinda it was it it was will to be
Speaker:a transfer, but I realized, that I have
Speaker:family members in a in a real a good a good portion of our society.
Speaker:C, basically, as you as you've just, revealed in in the
Speaker:study, is you know, that's not that's not
Speaker:how we are experiencing
Speaker:a spiritual encounter or spiritual growth at all.
Speaker:And sometimes I wonder if I really have a a good
Speaker:answer for that. What you know, why should anyone bother to be a Christian
Speaker:much less be a part of the United Methodist Church?
Speaker:Why would anyone want to bother to be a Christian?
Speaker:Pastor Sherry Drake, I saw you on mute.
Speaker:Yes. I've managed to lose my own image.
Speaker:I'm not technical. Emma, are you hearing me now? Yes. We
Speaker:are. Okay. I'm waving my hands and stuff. They no.
Speaker:I I was just thinking, this, this is such
Speaker:an important question to me, in the sense that
Speaker:a a few years
Speaker:can take a doctor of ministry class where I was trying to see
Speaker:about the the the traditions of the church.
Speaker:Like what, you know, what, what do we have to put to
Speaker:to to carry forward and thought about that verse, where they tell the
Speaker:story of the a wise householder goes into his house and brings
Speaker:out treasures both old and new. And one of the things that
Speaker:I'm loving about this book study is the that invitation
Speaker:to take the very, kind of core of our Methodist
Speaker:traditions in a way, but then interpret and
Speaker:reinterpret and rereinterpret it into a new future.
Speaker:And so that gives me so much hope. And I'm
Speaker:sorry that we haven't found the way of
Speaker:communicating that to those outside of the church
Speaker:yet. You know what I mean? So
Speaker:It's a really good point. Are there others? Erin, I see your
Speaker:hand waving. Yeah.
Speaker:Well, first, I wanna say hi to Lisa Trigg. Hi, friend.
Speaker:Lisa and I had the opportunity this summer to spend a couple weeks with
Speaker:Paul Chilcote in England. And this particular
Speaker:chapter highlighted some of the conversations,
Speaker:at least that I was in on with Paul. Lisa, you were probably in on
Speaker:them too. It's one in particular where on
Speaker:page 56, he says, we need to rediscover what it
Speaker:means to be a movement. And,
Speaker:because as we Trimble to Oxford and to Epworth and and
Speaker:Bristol and London and all the Wesley places, we were
Speaker:constantly amazed by how the Wesley's ignited
Speaker:this revival and started this Methodist movement inside
Speaker:the church. And the question for all of us was,
Speaker:how can we do that today? And,
Speaker:and that seems to be the question that is here too in
Speaker:this chapter and throughout the rest of the book is how do we
Speaker:ignite a revival within our church today.
Speaker:And we have a real opportunity before us, that
Speaker:he outlines for us, and it's all centered around love and, yes, relationships are huge.
Speaker:C
Speaker:that that remains the question, doesn't it? Mhmm.
Speaker:And I think the, I certainly connect with the notion
Speaker:that a movement, is not
Speaker:connected to, right doctrine or
Speaker:adherence to the the right perfect
Speaker:doctrine, but more as he argues
Speaker:to the to the movement of the spirit and to love and to
Speaker:being known by love and to loving those
Speaker:that often feel unloved more so than if
Speaker:we all can agree on, the particulars
Speaker:around Amen. Doctrine. Yes. And earlier in the
Speaker:book, he talked about the the real the way that the
Speaker:Wesleys were really unique in being able to
Speaker:take the message to a people who did not feel loved, who
Speaker:did not know that god loved them regardless
Speaker:and help those people understand that, yes, you have a god. He loves
Speaker:you, and, you can live through this into a
Speaker:better life. And that was the real fire that
Speaker:Wesley had. And don't you know we're in a similar
Speaker:situation today, where the bulk of
Speaker:our our friends on the streets who are not with us in the churches
Speaker:Yeah. Don't know that they really are loved and that they are
Speaker:worthy. And and that was part of what Paul said
Speaker:too. The movement is outside of our church buildings. It's out
Speaker:among people. It's out in the places where you don't expect it to be,
Speaker:but it is, and that's where it's most receptive. So it's it's
Speaker:the jails and the food pantries and all those gritty
Speaker:places we might not want to go. Those are
Speaker:that's where we reignite this movement,
Speaker:and that's where we've gotta go. This connects real this
Speaker:really connects for me, doctor Fulbright, with,
Speaker:I know all of us weren't there, but to hear Bishop Bob Farr,
Speaker:and the emphasis because I kept wrestling with how good
Speaker:we are at mission, but but sometimes we don't
Speaker:get the names of the people that we are, quote, unquote, in mission
Speaker:with. What does it mean to become missional and for us to
Speaker:become missionaries? And the Wesley's and the early Methodist,
Speaker:it was a movement because they were essentially missionaries.
Speaker:Some argue I'm not an expert on this. Maybe doctor Cartwright can
Speaker:help us with this as or one of the other scholars on here. But in
Speaker:that some argue that in 1968, when we became 68
Speaker:when we became the United Methodist Church, then we
Speaker:became a church for its membership. We were we in
Speaker:fact, we became much less of, we
Speaker:in fact, we gave up the priority of even actually being a movement altogether
Speaker:because we've now we're, an institution. We
Speaker:had sufficient numbers to brag about our ranking in
Speaker:terms of main, protestant
Speaker:presence in the US. Now it's very very much a different
Speaker:church with growth taking place, not
Speaker:not in the west, but taking place in in the
Speaker:global global south, and to
Speaker:recognize that our membership has has declined essentially
Speaker:from 1970 till now,
Speaker:in the US and has grown in other places outside of the
Speaker:US. So, this notion
Speaker:of of of movement versus, maybe
Speaker:institutional stability and survival, has
Speaker:really has really, really been a an ongoing
Speaker:conversation. It's not a new conversation at all.
Speaker:But some places, we do actually see see, you know,
Speaker:excitement and enthusiasm, and I often wanna I often ask the
Speaker:question, you know, what what
Speaker:happens in your local church, does it really matter? And
Speaker:I believe it does matter. And sometimes it matters what we may
Speaker:seem like to us in very small ways, but essentially,
Speaker:it's it's it's really, it's really part of what
Speaker:what god is doing through the church.
Speaker:Other commentary on chapter 5.
Speaker:This is Sherry Drake again. Like I said, I cut out a
Speaker:picture of myself, so I don't know whether but, may I bring just a
Speaker:quick word of of hope that I, came across?
Speaker:When we're talking about how we do things, one of the
Speaker:things that, I've always been a music lover and have had a
Speaker:chance to sing and stuff. And I was absolutely
Speaker:delighted to discover that at Ball State University
Speaker:in the last decade, one of the most
Speaker:the the fastest growing music,
Speaker:requests are for people wanting to learn how to
Speaker:play traditional church pipe organs.
Speaker:And the interesting thing was is that these are young people. I talked to a
Speaker:couple to try to find out why they wanted that, And they love
Speaker:a mixture of music, but they love the ideas of
Speaker:some of the old hymns that are played in the ways
Speaker:that we used to celebrate. So our little congregation
Speaker:is trying to play around with how it is we might be able to get
Speaker:those of us who love the traditional pipe organ because that's what we grew up
Speaker:with, together with these younger people who are
Speaker:saying that they're really excited about it it too. So end
Speaker:of story. That was great that was great story. That was
Speaker:great story. Did you have a I'd be 1 oh, I
Speaker:see Steve Burris. Steven Lee Burris. He
Speaker:wanted this year. Yes, please.
Speaker:We can hear you. Okay.
Speaker:Just in I wanted to encapsulate this in,
Speaker:what I think is a simple phrase. It's not
Speaker:about doctrine. It's not about structure. It's
Speaker:about attitude, an attitude of love. And we
Speaker:can have that even in the environment
Speaker:within the local church. But sometimes, the
Speaker:little church spends most of its time on saving the structure
Speaker:or protecting the doctrine.
Speaker:Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. I
Speaker:did keep in the chat. Diane offered a great question
Speaker:for pondering and further conversation. You want me to read it?
Speaker:Yes, please. Diane or, Diane, if you wanna
Speaker:unmute, you can read your own question. I just don't see your face, so I
Speaker:just wanted to be mindful of that. Go ahead, please.
Speaker:I just was thinking as we were talking, what would happen if
Speaker:we were asking the question, what can we do for our neighbors,
Speaker:rather than how can we get our neighbors to walk through our doors.
Speaker:And I was thinking about it because I was in a small rural church this
Speaker:morning preaching, and I was just thinking, you know, this church
Speaker:wants to grow and wants people to come to them. But what would happen if
Speaker:they put all of their effort into going out into the
Speaker:community and, being there and being
Speaker:present rather than worrying so much about who was
Speaker:coming through their doors and how old they were and etcetera,
Speaker:etcetera. What if they were what if we were all
Speaker:out trying to figure out what we could do in our own neighborhoods instead
Speaker:of trying to think that our mission was to get the people in through
Speaker:our doors? Great. Great. Great. Great. That's
Speaker:that's so consistent with on page 61, the
Speaker:top, about the what our primary question should be.
Speaker:And do our siblings and the human family know they are loved?
Speaker:So so, you know, can we answer that? Do do do the folks in our
Speaker:communities know that know that know that they are loved.
Speaker:C? I think it's also such a culturally
Speaker:right time for what Methodist really
Speaker:stands for. And, and I'm gonna put a quote out of that,
Speaker:surgeon general's report. I just put it into the chat because one of the things
Speaker:that he talks about also is that as we see the
Speaker:widening gap between the rich and the poor in America and the decline of the
Speaker:middle class, that places where people can establish
Speaker:social connection, there need to be spaces that are
Speaker:equitable. I mean, it doesn't do me any good to, like,
Speaker:you know, establish social connection with people at an art
Speaker:institute if I don't have the money to take on a membership.
Speaker:Whereas church, you know, as as Wesley
Speaker:showed, Wesley left the building because, basically, people couldn't
Speaker:afford the building and went out into the fields
Speaker:to preach to the poorest of the poor who desperately
Speaker:needed to hear about God's love and also
Speaker:be brought together in community, in caring community.
Speaker:So in some sense, it's it's back to the future. We're experiencing some of the
Speaker:same cultural context as what the Wesley's
Speaker:ministered in and and how they started.
Speaker:Because church holds the power, not the building church. The
Speaker:church as the collected people of Christ
Speaker:holds the power to truly create
Speaker:equitable connection and love and care.
Speaker:Right. Right. Doctor Hartline?
Speaker:Yeah. They they say that confession is good for the soul, and,
Speaker:I'm a a little bit more than a year into retirement. And I've
Speaker:been trying to practice what, James Baldwin called,
Speaker:doing your first works over, which means to go back and
Speaker:examine things. And it's it's sort of
Speaker:a an examination of conscience, but it's also about truth
Speaker:telling. So as it turns out, I was a pastor of a rural
Speaker:church in North Carolina 40 years ago,
Speaker:and that was the time of the bicentennial of
Speaker:Methodism. And so, we did a number of things. So
Speaker:that particular congregation had been,
Speaker:sir, had, hosted,
Speaker:Francis Asbury in 17/80. And so it was a
Speaker:rural congregation, but it was over 200 years old. And,
Speaker:it it was a good season for me as a first time pastor,
Speaker:but I was a workaholic. I was all
Speaker:about doing, and, it wasn't enough about
Speaker:being with. So I I look back on
Speaker:that season that I was the pastor of that
Speaker:church, And, I I,
Speaker:I've learned the learned the distinction from,
Speaker:Samuel Wells. He says we we
Speaker:tend in our preoccupation with our achievements to be
Speaker:all about doing for because it
Speaker:it seems to offer us the the
Speaker:consolation that we're accomplishing something, but,
Speaker:we overlooked the opportunities for being with.
Speaker:So when I look back 40 years ago, I
Speaker:realized that I had opportunities for
Speaker:being with those who were alcoholics.
Speaker:And I had the opportunities for those,
Speaker:to cross the color line every day. I lived in a
Speaker:segregated community where there were blacks and whites. There were 4 white churches
Speaker:and were black churches, and, I I
Speaker:was pretty righteous about wanting
Speaker:to propose that our church worship with the other United
Speaker:Methodist Church in town, but I I wasn't
Speaker:enough about multiplying love in the way that Paul Chilcot
Speaker:is talking about it. And so I didn't form relationships with
Speaker:with, the people in the town,
Speaker:black or white. So, you know, it's it's,
Speaker:it's a hard thing to recognize,
Speaker:fundamental errors, but, if I had been about multiplying
Speaker:love, 40 years ago
Speaker:in rural North Carolina,
Speaker:I I would not have done some of the things that I did for
Speaker:which I got accolades. You know? I I achieved
Speaker:things, and I I felt good about my achievements. But,
Speaker:meanwhile, 2 of the children that I
Speaker:baptized in that church that year grew up in the
Speaker:family of an alcoholic. They are United
Speaker:Methodist clergy today, and they are alcoholics.
Speaker:And it's a a very
Speaker:poignant thing to know that that's part of their baptism,
Speaker:part of their life, and witness part of the ways in which they,
Speaker:have died and been raised with Christ. But I have to wonder
Speaker:what what what, what might have been
Speaker:if I had been, more
Speaker:attentive to, being
Speaker:with that family in the midst of it. I I don't have
Speaker:any reason to think that I would have kept them from
Speaker:being alcoholics, but I I might have offered some
Speaker:consolation in the midst of what has been a lifelong struggle.
Speaker:So confession is good for the soul. Thank you for
Speaker:sharing. Erin, I saw your hand.
Speaker:Yeah. Doctor Cartwright, as you were talking, it got me thinking about another
Speaker:thing that jumped from Paul Chilcote's pen into my
Speaker:head part. I don't know. But he says, you know, all
Speaker:crush Christians find their ultimate purpose in servanthood.
Speaker:Just as in Jesus' image of the vine and branches, we are gathered
Speaker:to learn how to love as disciples and then sent
Speaker:out into the world as apostles to share that
Speaker:love with others. It seems like we do a
Speaker:pretty good job gathering and sharing the message
Speaker:with each other. It's the hard part is that going out
Speaker:into the world not to do to those other people or even
Speaker:for those other people but to share with them the good
Speaker:news. And god then takes that and goes from there. And
Speaker:what we don't do that good job of is taking it out
Speaker:the next step. Just
Speaker:thanks for that prompt. Now what is what is
Speaker:our work? What is God's work? Yeah. Alright. And to my to my dear
Speaker:friend and colleague, Michael, in the name of Jesus Christ, you are
Speaker:forgiven. Mhmm. We all are for our,
Speaker:looking at as as one who's getting ready to step into retirement. I
Speaker:look back look back on all the things that I did not do. But I
Speaker:wonder just reading 61 and 62, I don't know if you were
Speaker:just just indicted by, but I wonder if
Speaker:the god we are offering is not the god that people believe in
Speaker:or the god that that they believe. So if
Speaker:25% of those who, who,
Speaker:from the Baylor Baylor study, really believe that
Speaker:the god is a what what's the word
Speaker:I'm looking for? 25% believe
Speaker:oops. 25% god is a generous and benevolent
Speaker:god. So that means that the majority of people really think of god
Speaker:more as authoritarian, a critical god, judgmental
Speaker:god. So so and then the the second part,
Speaker:really second looking at non Christians view of Christians,
Speaker:here we turn to 2 different studies, the Lifeways study,
Speaker:drew the following conclusion. A majority of unchurched
Speaker:Americans, 79%, friends, think that Christianity
Speaker:today is really more about organized religion
Speaker:than loving God and loving neighbor or loving people.
Speaker:86% believe they can have a good relationship with
Speaker:God without having anything to do with the church at all. These are I'm
Speaker:paraphrasing, but that's essentially what it says. So we've got
Speaker:a a majority of folks who, a
Speaker:significant number of folks who believe that the god that we are that that that
Speaker:the church has to offer is not a gracious necessary.
Speaker:I'm I'm adding this myself, but I don't know if you agree. You know, maybe
Speaker:they're saying maybe we think that the god we're offering we're
Speaker:offering god as love. We're preaching sermons on love, but that's not
Speaker:how other people are perceiving or experiencing or receiving what
Speaker:it is that we have to offer. I have a a brother-in-law a brother-in-law
Speaker:who's passed on now who we had kind of an
Speaker:ongoing discussion around whether you really even needed to be part
Speaker:of the church to to be a healthy spiritual
Speaker:spiritually connected to God. My bias was, well,
Speaker:it's in the Trimble. You know? The Bible said Julius as
Speaker:Jesus went to the the synagogue, they said, as was his custom. So I'm
Speaker:assuming that Jesus went more than just first Sunday every
Speaker:quarter. And so I was a firm believer in that where's the
Speaker:text Thessalonians, where's the text where it says or Hebrews where it's
Speaker:neglect not to gather and, you know, so so I think
Speaker:there's an encouragement for us to be community. I'm a I'm a big believer
Speaker:that Christian community is essential for Christian
Speaker:growth. My brother-in-law was of the belief that, you know,
Speaker:people don't have to go to church, they have a relationship with
Speaker:God, accept Jesus Christ, and just do good
Speaker:things, you know, and that was that was it. So
Speaker:now that I got my little therapy session out of the way
Speaker:I think it's time to move on to chapter 6, Bishop. Alright. Alright. We we
Speaker:we got time limitations on this. Because we got time.
Speaker:Okay. Let's go to check. Go ahead, doctor. What what what do you
Speaker:So the title of chapter 6, the church as a community of
Speaker:inclusive love and grace. So I think it's quite interesting when you talked about
Speaker:that Baylor study. It's how are we
Speaker:conveying who God is? Because the ways in which
Speaker:people experience God is through our words and our deeds. And
Speaker:so it's quite interesting that that Baylor study elevated
Speaker:the views of persons related to god when it should
Speaker:be counter from what our understanding of who god is and the fullness
Speaker:of who god is as we understand it is full of love without
Speaker:bounds. But yet, sometimes, church people
Speaker:don't necessarily, give a good name for
Speaker:God. That's just like on Yelp. If someone gives
Speaker:only 2 stars to a restaurant or some type of establishment,
Speaker:people are not going to go to that establishment, typically, if
Speaker:there's only 2 stars. I just wonder what's God's
Speaker:yelp right now as it relates to humanity.
Speaker:Is god only getting 2 stars? And if that's the case, how can
Speaker:we change that? That would be my curiosity. I didn't get to
Speaker:preach this morning. So, Bishop, I'll I'll quiet that down.
Speaker:I just just need to preach in. What
Speaker:I really like about this book, friends, is well, there were a lot of things
Speaker:I like about it, but with the titles of the chapter. So the number
Speaker:6, to me, it's like period, hard stop.
Speaker:This is this is this the church is a community of inclusive
Speaker:love and grace. Would somebody be willing to read
Speaker:the read the scripture text and then, unmute
Speaker:unmute yourself and and read the scripture text on page
Speaker:65.
Speaker:Who would be willing to share? John, 154 to 58
Speaker:through 10. Krista. I would do the remain
Speaker:in me, and I will remain in you. A branch can't
Speaker:produce fruit by itself, but must remain in the vine.
Speaker:Likewise, you can't produce fruit unless you remain in
Speaker:me. I am the vine. You are the branches.
Speaker:If you remain in me and I in you, then you will produce
Speaker:much fruit. Without me, you can't do anything.
Speaker:My father is glorified when you produce much fruit, and in this
Speaker:way prove that you are my disciples. As the father loved
Speaker:me, I too have loved you. Remain in
Speaker:my love. If you keep my commandments, you will
Speaker:remain in my love. Just as I kept my father's
Speaker:commandments and remain in his love.
Speaker:Amen. Amen.
Speaker:Commentary on, on the reading of the text and
Speaker:the and the title of chapter 6, the church's community of
Speaker:inclusive love and grace.
Speaker:I think the reading of this text, pairs well with what Chokot says
Speaker:on page 67 when he says that everything begins with God's
Speaker:love. Everything. Ideally, the church embodies this
Speaker:love as well. And one of the notes that I had shared is that
Speaker:if we are truly a culture of love, it's not what we do, it's who
Speaker:we are.
Speaker:Alright. I see you on mute. Go ahead.
Speaker:Alright. I don't have my copy of his book, right before
Speaker:me. I did did read it, this week, and,
Speaker:he he, I think he has
Speaker:identified something quite telling in his critique of the other
Speaker:book, and I I know our focus is not to,
Speaker:be preoccupied with what, Jeff Greenway and,
Speaker:Mike Lowry wrote. But
Speaker:I think this is one of these places where there's a a great confusion
Speaker:between the kind of unity of like mindedness
Speaker:that, that he identifies as as a
Speaker:problem and the kind of unity and love,
Speaker:the abiding and the bind that is being described in
Speaker:this in this chapter. And so,
Speaker:I I do grieve for those who have disaffiliated,
Speaker:because they find like mindedness to be
Speaker:more
Speaker:viable for getting on with the mission that they wanna be about.
Speaker:And, as our bishop said,
Speaker:you know, the doctrine rightly understood,
Speaker:is is about loving, and, rightly used
Speaker:is going to is gonna be, for the
Speaker:sake of mission. But,
Speaker:this this movement to
Speaker:recreate the church around like mindedness, it just grieves me
Speaker:deeply. It creates
Speaker:a mirror image of not a mirror image. It creates,
Speaker:more echo chambers, more
Speaker:culture wars, frameworks. And so I I do think that
Speaker:Paul Chilcot has, named quite
Speaker:well, the dimensions of this that extend
Speaker:out in terms of polity, institutional arrangements.
Speaker:It's just such a well may well wrought,
Speaker:vision of the church that he's, describing for
Speaker:us here. And I I do fear that, you
Speaker:know, there are there are left wing versions of this as well.
Speaker:So it may be it may be very easy for us to
Speaker:talk about, like mindedness as if
Speaker:it's all about, right wing
Speaker:patterns of doctrinal uniformity. But, I I see
Speaker:it on the left, and I grieve about it there too. And
Speaker:so god god help us, and god deliver us from, the
Speaker:too easy
Speaker:invitation to group ourselves around being like
Speaker:minded and everyone agreeing with,
Speaker:what they judged to be the most, salient points. And,
Speaker:this this vision of living into,
Speaker:abiding and divine that that has a lot
Speaker:of, a lot of power, but it it
Speaker:does create and has a great deal of vulnerability
Speaker:because I I didn't have to I have to deal with you
Speaker:and you have to deal with me. And
Speaker:not not just what what we, what we say we agree
Speaker:on. I think it I think
Speaker:it would be who was to really become much
Speaker:more confessional and Trimble
Speaker:in our approach to,
Speaker:you know, our Christian identity and faith.
Speaker:I really wrestle with the words authentic. Y'all
Speaker:know Brene Brown and others have made authenticity and vulnerability
Speaker:very popular terms in recent years.
Speaker:But even when even when, Chico writes about Wesley
Speaker:and and and, you know, the portrait of what an authentic Christian
Speaker:looks like, You know, it always it always raises in, you know, I guess, what
Speaker:if you're striving? You don't you you're just resting with trying to be,
Speaker:I I like the hymn, Lord, I wanna be a Christian in my heart first.
Speaker:I wanna be more loving. I wanna be more like Jesus.
Speaker:This notion of, oh, what this is an authentic Christian witness,
Speaker:so this is an authentic Christian identity.
Speaker:I think there's a bit of I don't know. I don't wanna say
Speaker:arrogance, but but I think if we can approach,
Speaker:where we want to be, where we where we want God with where we
Speaker:think God wants us to be with a lot more humility, which I think
Speaker:is the reason I think our prayers of confession are
Speaker:needed. We don't need to I know in our effort sometimes
Speaker:to abbreviate our worship liturgy, we we we cannot
Speaker:have exited, our prayers
Speaker:of confession, even sometimes in our communion liturgies.
Speaker:We've and I always wrestle with doctor.
Speaker:I don't know if you've ever had people come to you and say,
Speaker:people have come to me and said, Bishop, can I be brutally honest? Can I
Speaker:be honest with you in this conversation? I always wondered, well, all
Speaker:these previous conversations that we've been having, David,
Speaker:do we need to go back and review? I thought we
Speaker:were being to the best of our abilities, being honest.
Speaker:So I don't know. I I know. I wrestle I know there's limitations
Speaker:in our in our in our language in our languages, and that's
Speaker:why I really appreciate interfacing with people from other
Speaker:who speak other languages and from other cultures and,
Speaker:and who sing other songs. Right. One way I love going to Africa
Speaker:University and because some of the songs and the songs that they
Speaker:sing when they translate them, I said, woah. That is really a
Speaker:fresh look at what it means to love God and praise God
Speaker:when you hear it from another language and it's interpreted,
Speaker:into into English. Bishop,
Speaker:I see Steve. Steve, did you have something to share?
Speaker:Yes. To, to quote
Speaker:earlier, to be brutally frank, and to
Speaker:reflect on what, doctor Cartwright said.
Speaker:As a former council and ministry director working with Ed
Speaker:Finstermacher as it might, turn out. You might
Speaker:know him well. And
Speaker:and that role, certainly part of it was church growth, and we were all
Speaker:about, making sure the churches grew
Speaker:and, started new churches, but so much
Speaker:of it was about about finding the
Speaker:location, getting the people inside the building.
Speaker:And I think we've come to especially after the pandemic,
Speaker:we've come to a real crossroads because
Speaker:those who do remain in the church,
Speaker:are are clinging to, the
Speaker:structure, the building,
Speaker:and to deal with the idea that we might have to walk away
Speaker:from that and to to be
Speaker:with, as doctor Cartwright said, to be with
Speaker:others and to have that to really be the
Speaker:main thrust of our service in the name of
Speaker:Jesus. And, now we're
Speaker:involved in a church now that, will,
Speaker:will have to make some serious decisions about the edifice
Speaker:at a time when we wanted to be
Speaker:out with people making a difference. I I've got
Speaker:the the joy in of, being able to be a
Speaker:volunteer, chaplain at the YMCA.
Speaker:And purpose that goes right along with what doctor
Speaker:Cartwright was saying, was to do a ministry of
Speaker:presence just to be there with people,
Speaker:to be open to talk to them, whether it's about their faith or
Speaker:whether it's about what they did yesterday or with the new car they bought or
Speaker:whatever it is. And that
Speaker:seems so different than what I,
Speaker:was charged to do along with many other things in the role of
Speaker:council director. It's just a new world,
Speaker:and, it's a world that we have to accept
Speaker:the reality. We have to make a change. Thank you for
Speaker:doing this, Bishop. Thank thank you for joining us, all of
Speaker:you. One of the books that, I've also
Speaker:encouraged people to consider reading is is Bishop Ken Carter's
Speaker:book, Unrelenting Grace, and I think it really pairs
Speaker:pairs beautifully with what, Paul
Speaker:writes. Because maybe the future and I think the argument there and argument
Speaker:here is that our future might not be in our edifices,
Speaker:Steve, as you as you as you were sharing, but our future may be
Speaker:in our theology and our capacity
Speaker:really to be with people where they
Speaker:are and the fact that it that our that our strongest part
Speaker:of our Wesleyan, way of being
Speaker:is the notion of generous grace, you know,
Speaker:a a generous unrelenting grace. And I think
Speaker:that's best experience as others have said,
Speaker:on this this evening and previously,
Speaker:relationships. You know? People experience god's grace
Speaker:in large part through relationships.
Speaker:And I see that when I'm visiting local congregations, and I
Speaker:see the way in which, they've made room for people in the
Speaker:community, and they are engaged in their communities.
Speaker:This is how people are experiencing and how people are experiencing God
Speaker:in part in part, how people are experiencing God.
Speaker:Awesome. Are there any other insights,
Speaker:curiosities, and our concluding minutes together this
Speaker:week? My, how time flies when we're having fun,
Speaker:and having rich conversation. Doctor, I see you on
Speaker:mute. Welcome. I see that. Yes, John. Gospel
Speaker:of John right there, remain in me, and I will remain in
Speaker:you. I think we kinda have to go back
Speaker:there. That's the whole genesis of this
Speaker:study. A lot of times, we
Speaker:forget to be to be with the Christ,
Speaker:and somehow I am in control.
Speaker:I am in control. And we
Speaker:and if I if I know that I am in control over church and
Speaker:building and then all of that, it is difficult for us
Speaker:what it means to be and remain in Christ,
Speaker:remain in Jesus. So I just kind of as we conclude,
Speaker:I like words to kind of take us back to,
Speaker:you know, Christ following Jesus means that we are going
Speaker:to the margins, not at the center where I
Speaker:control everything. I am at the center, and I
Speaker:am I have given all the power to control, be sure that
Speaker:everything runs smoothly the way that I see it.
Speaker:But he said not true. It is not true
Speaker:that God and through Jesus Christ has not given us commandments.
Speaker:Yes, ma'am. And so if you're talking about it because right here, we read it.
Speaker:Sometimes we read this and we we hear the word love and unity, but we
Speaker:forget the word commandment. It's this is not something
Speaker:that we're supposed to be trying to figure out how to do some new
Speaker:new foot fandangled way of of being
Speaker:being a a god follower. It says the commandment
Speaker:the the commandment is love. I'm
Speaker:sorry, You weren't finished making your your
Speaker:point. But I was I was I went back and looked at the scripture how
Speaker:you how you were raising that. Yes. Yes,
Speaker:Bishop. Thank you, though. I think a lot of times a
Speaker:lot of times, you know, it is time for us to as a as a
Speaker:Methodist, you know, is there something that we have a control over?
Speaker:Or is is this a time for us to kind of, release
Speaker:that we thought that we have a control over? And then
Speaker:going back to the main, you know, main you know,
Speaker:the the relationship with the Christ, he said remain in
Speaker:me. Amen. Amen.
Speaker:I see something else in the chat.
Speaker:Brad Miller was giving his information information about your Be
Speaker:Encouraged podcast. So, friends, if you have missed the last two
Speaker:other weeks that we have been on Journey and you would like to get caught
Speaker:up or curious about what was said, if you've missed, the
Speaker:be encouraged podcast, we'll provide those this learning
Speaker:in addition to today. Also, as we are concluding,
Speaker:next week is our final week. My word. It has gone by
Speaker:so quickly. And so if you have friends
Speaker:that, have wanted to join, but they forget forgot to
Speaker:join, invite them to be a part of it because as you see, it's
Speaker:more conversational as we are taking leadership from our Bishop,
Speaker:and we will be concluding this book, chapter 7 and 8. But
Speaker:again, the book is not needed fully in order to gauge in
Speaker:the conversation because a lot of it is by our
Speaker:experiences, but then also the movement of God's spirit just to remind
Speaker:us from scripture what we are called to do as faithful followers
Speaker:of Jesus Christ. So, Bishop, in your last minute
Speaker:with us this week, is there any concluding things
Speaker:that you would like to share? Yes. I'd like to invite us once again,
Speaker:beloved, to tomorrow morning or whenever you wake up, I hope it's
Speaker:tomorrow morning, that you'd read, the prayer
Speaker:from the top of chap page 42. New
Speaker:every morning and your love, god. The second thing I saw in the
Speaker:chat around, a waitress,
Speaker:people going to restaurant and sometimes people come out of church being
Speaker:and I I know that to be true. This is not this is not
Speaker:hyperbole or or this is this is not
Speaker:anecdotal in a sense a study could be done and and and
Speaker:certainly facts would bear the bear this out. And here's my invitation
Speaker:for the remainder of our Lenten time. When we just I just
Speaker:came from a restaurant with some of our family who's in town, and they'll
Speaker:leave in town tomorrow. And we had a wonderful experience,
Speaker:wonderful exchange with the server. But that
Speaker:we have so many opportunities when we encounter people to
Speaker:really demonstrate kindness. And, we I don't think we
Speaker:we we get extra stars for that. But but
Speaker:kindness should really be slow easily from the mouths and from
Speaker:the hearts of those of us who are Christ followers.
Speaker:And, I I just if we can encourage each other, something
Speaker:I need to be encouraged to to to remember that I'm gonna have an
Speaker:opportunity tomorrow at some point to,
Speaker:to really demonstrate, what I call Christian kindness,
Speaker:but but kindness during this season. And I have
Speaker:22 of our 3 children, 2 our 2 boys, all
Speaker:both served as service in restaurants. One of our
Speaker:oldest son for a number of years, and the stories that we
Speaker:we heard from people who actually worked in restaurant and service,
Speaker:I was I was I was disappointed to hear how some
Speaker:people, really, really,
Speaker:interact with people who are who are serving them.
Speaker:Let us pray. Loving god for our time together, we give you thanks
Speaker:and praise. Grant us another opportunity, oh
Speaker:god, to not only be receivers of grace,
Speaker:but extenders of grace. Grant us, oh god,
Speaker:another opportunity at night to rest well and tomorrow
Speaker:to to awaken, to give you praise
Speaker:and glory with another opportunity, oh god,
Speaker:to grow in grace and to extend and
Speaker:express the love of Jesus Christ to a hurting and hungry world.
Speaker:Bless those who've been able to join us on this Lenten journey with
Speaker:multiplying love, and grant us, oh god, a commitment,
Speaker:to really strengthen the connection of the United Methodist
Speaker:Church in the present day and the days which are ahead.
Speaker:It is in Christ's name we pray. Amen.
Speaker:Love you, friends. Be encouraged. Have a good evening. Thank
Speaker:you, Bishop.
