Embracing Grace and Empathy: Leading with Love in Discouraging Times

Dr Brad Miller [00:00:01]:

Hello good people, and welcome again to the to the To Be in Courage podcast with Bishop Julius C. Trimble. My name is Dr. Brad Miller and Bishop Trimble and I engage in conversations about all matters of church and theology and, and matters of encouraging people in discouraging times. And Bishop, today let's have a little conversation about some topics you want to touch on today. Grace and empathy. What brought this to your heart today, these areas of grace and EMP and sympathy?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:00:33]:

Well, you know, Brad, you know, recently I lost my, my mother and my siblings and I were able to be together and celebrate two great celebrations of life of a, of a woman, a trailblazer who lived to be 102 years old. So when you think about somebody who was born in 1922 when, yeah, when, when bread was 35 cents a loaf. So, so you think that, that she saw a lot of things. And one of the things that, that learned from our parents and particularly from my mother, was the importance of really not only being recipients of God's grace, but also extending God's grace, meaning God's love without condition to others. And so I think that's something that may, Brad, be sometimes it seems like in a short supply, both in the political and social arena of our globe right now. And I really want to emphasize to our listeners that there's a need for us not to waste God's grace.

Dr Brad Miller [00:01:36]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:01:37]:

But really to be amplifiers of God's grace.

Dr Brad Miller [00:01:39]:

Well, let's kind of start there. What do you see are some of the evidences of the lack of grace that's going on in the world today, which we've might also kind of terms. So the discouraging things are going on in the world. What are some evidence of that? And then, then we'll take a approach of what some of the solutions or the responses to that are. What are some evidences of lack of grace going on in the world right now?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:02:03]:

Well, it seems to be, I mean, I don't want to just focus on our current presidential leadership, but I do want to say there seems to be in our environment, almost in our society, Brad, this notion that there needs to be, we need to make enemies of each other. There's a need to make some people less human than others and less important than others. And the whole criminalization of whole populations. There seems to be something about our suspicion of our neighbors and this unrelenting appetite for retribution. Right. And I don't know where that comes from, but we need to reclaim particularly those of us who are people of faith. I'm A Christian. You're a Christian.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:02:53]:

We proclaim to be followers of Christ. We need to reclaim the matter of extending grace, God's love to other people.

Dr Brad Miller [00:03:03]:

Bishop, we've indicated some of the talk we've had here about the fear of the other and, and that this lack of grace that is experiencing people kind of siloing, you know, I might, it's me against you and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's a lot, a lot about fear there. How do we respond to that?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:03:20]:

There almost seems to be a spirit of retribution that is permeating throughout our society. And with so many things happening, you know, was a recent shooting Catholic Catholic school in Minneapolis. You know, we've got to find a better way to amplify God's love and God's grace. Not in some kind of wishy washy way, but a serious commitment to really elevate the importance of all people and the dignity of human life in ways. Ways that we all can value.

Dr Brad Miller [00:04:00]:

It seems to me that terms like empathy and sympathy have kind of been turned on their ear a little bit by, by some folks. What do you think? How do those terms come into play? Maybe give me a definition of your understanding of empathy and sympathy as we relate to this issue.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:18]:

Well, I think I experience both of those recently with the death of my mother. I think empathy is when sometimes people express feeling with you, something that you're going through, a sympathy is feeling for you. And both of those have their appropriate place. Some people say, you know, I feel sorry that your mother has passed away. And some people said, you know, I lost my mother. So I empathize with that. You know, I recently lost a loved one. A year ago, we lost one of my brothers.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:04:50]:

Two years ago, one of my wife lost a brother. So when people say I also lost. There were several people at the celebration who recently lost loved ones as well. They were I think, able to more empathize, empathize with us and. But it's also appropriate to express sympathy. You know, something bad happens, you know, we can, I can sympathize with those who have lost life through mass shootings. I've never experienced that. I haven't lost a loved one to a mass shooting, but I certainly sympathize.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:20]:

So empathy, I think, is more feeling with someone connecting in that sense of a common experience. Sympathy is appropriate. And Christians should be strong in both of those areas. Should be strong in both of those areas. But what is even more important, I think, is, is having a healthy understanding. Brad of grace is not just something that God extends. You know, some would call it God's redemption at Christ Express, or God's unmerited love and favor for us.

Dr Brad Miller [00:05:55]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:05:55]:

And Methodists, we've got Methodists, we've got a number of, I don't want to call them categories of grace, but prevenient, grace and sanctifying, sure. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, God loves us. How come we can't find a way to really express that love to more people, if not all people? It seems like we're shrinking. We keep shrinking the crowd of people that deserve grace.

Dr Brad Miller [00:06:21]:

Yeah, it just seems like that's antithetical to the message of Christianity overall, but often a religious message that many faiths have of a greater love for. And then it seems like many folks these days have really warp that or manipulated that whole thinking to the greater love is just for people who kind of look like me or talk like me or in my little niche or my group here. And it seems to me that there's no greater time than right now than for us to embrace grace for its full meaningfulness of what that is all about and to help, I believe, teach grace. Because it seems to me that a lot of people don't get it. They don't really, really know what grace is, apparently, and they are. So how are some ways that we can show grace and teach grace and help grace to be more. As you say, it's been gifts. Grace has been shrinking.

Dr Brad Miller [00:07:17]:

What can we do to expand it and make it more permeable to people?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:07:21]:

I think a lot of people really connect with stories. And if we can be able to really value our stories and our own stories. And for us who are people of the Bible, you know, by. We think about the Apostle Paul, it's so many things he writes about grace, but a lot of that is born out of his conversion experience before we call them Paul, when he was persecuting followers of Christ, believers who can and considered them worthy of death and persecution, until he had his experience on the Damascus Road and literally was, I would call it, knocked over by God's grace through Jesus Christ. And so while he was not a contemporary meaning and a disciple of Jesus Christ, his whole life after his conversion experience was really a testimony of God's grace. In fact, in First Corinthians, the 15th chapter, he says, but by the grace of God, I am what I am. And Brad, couldn't we all say that? Couldn't we all essentially quote Apostle Paul, by the grace of God, I am.

Dr Brad Miller [00:08:30]:

What I Am I am what I.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:08:31]:

Am what I am. And his grace, his grace toward me was not in vain. And Paul goes on to say, I worked even harder, I went harder to, to preach Christ Jesus because of God's grace.

Dr Brad Miller [00:08:46]:

Well, that's, that's the fully evolved person is a man or woman of grace and how they experience that and share that, share that with others. When you say that phrase, I am who I am because of grace, that means God has fulfilled us completely and totally. And to deny that, to shrink that back is then saying that, you know, God is lesser than what we, than maybe what God is less than, than what God can be. And I just don't think that's the way we should understand it. And a lot of this I think has to go with how we choose to lead, where we're leading, with kind of God at the forefront of leading with us at the forefront. And you mentioned, with some of our earlier conversations, you mentioned a book, Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. And some people think course leadership is kind of like, you know, being out front, being forceful and you know, you all follow me and all that kind of thing and being a, whatever, a militaristic leader or a leader with force. But if I'm understanding the message of Jesus and what you kind of understood, some of the messages of Brown's book, leadership has a different context.

Dr Brad Miller [00:09:51]:

Can you say a little bit about leadership from like, you know, leadership by servanthood or things of this nature?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:09:56]:

Yeah, I think, yeah. As someone who's said that, I don't know if it was Lencioni or others who said the only authentic leadership there is is servant leadership. And Jesus said, you know, Jesus said, I, I come not to be served, but to serve.

Dr Brad Miller [00:10:11]:

Yes.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:10:11]:

Yeah. And the greatest among you is the one who will, who will serve. Brene Brown talks a lot about this in her book Dare to Lead. That leadership requires trust, vulnerability and empathy, which we talked about earlier. And she says, remember, empathy is the most powerful connection and trust building tool that we have and it's the antidote to shame. Someone has said that humans are the only ones that continue to punish ourselves over and over for the same mistake that we made.

Dr Brad Miller [00:10:46]:

That's a pretty consistent theme in Brene Brown's work is responding to shame. And I think that's a very good take on this in the sense of we have not, a lot of us have just simply have not dealt with shame, either individual individually or corporately. And, and that's then, then it comes out in unhealthy ways where People then, you know, they deal with their own personal shame by trying to project it on others or project, you know, it's kind of a one up type of thing on others. And that didn't work either, does it? That doesn't work.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:11:18]:

It doesn't. You know, it's been said that, I've heard this said by counselors and others that hurt people, hurt other people. And you know, you see this, you see this on, on occasion when then these mass shootings or people end up becoming, you know, abusers and then you find out that they themselves have, have a history at some point, have that. Now that's not an excuse because a lot of us have had, you know, what they, whether they call it aces, you know, childhood traumatic experiences, but that, you know, we don't always end up hurting others, but it's not uncommon for hurt people to end up hurting people. And I believe that if we have a revolution of grace, that we could really help turn this human ship around, if you will. And I'm not hope, I'm not being Pollyannish about it. I just believe I've seen it, I've experienced it. And like I most recently experienced it with the death of my mother and, and the way in which people express love without, without hesitation and was, was just palpable.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:12:23]:

It was, you know, you could literally feel grace. I mean, grace is something I believe you can actually literally feel, feel God's love through human relationship.

Dr Brad Miller [00:12:36]:

Absolutely. And it seems to me that if you have, as you mentioned, not everyone who has seen abuse childhood turns out to be an abuser, but something has broke the pattern for them. Something has broke a pattern of. There is, you know, phenomenon that happens of generations of abuse or generations of, of bad behavior. But then someone has broken the pattern going on and have success in business or success in ministry or raising a family successfully. And there's choices is what I'm trying to get at here, Bishop Trimble, that people make choices regarding this. And it seems to me if we am, that grace comes into play here, if we accept that we are loved no matter what, then we have the opportunity to change our ways and to then change the way how we relate to other people. So it seems to me that this is where people who have experienced grace can share that with others in the church and through personal encounters, things of that nature.

Dr Brad Miller [00:13:35]:

So what are some, just some suggestions or thoughts you might have about how we as people, men and women of grace can help to help those who are not experiencing love and grace to break those patterns and as you say, you're hopeful for the human race and yet we know there are discouraging people and discouraging times out there. What are some pattern breakers you think here?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:13:56]:

I think one of them is the act of listening. Renee Brown, not only Brene Brown, others talk about this as well. In fact, I think the Bible really helps us with that. In Psalm 40:40, sure. Be still and know that I am God. The act of listening is, in the words of Brene Brown, an act of vulnerability. You know, I'm willing, Brad, to listen to your story and your journey and your sorrows and your victories. Quite frankly, that's an act of vulnerability.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:14:27]:

And I think that's something that can help break what I call this pattern of the erosion of compassion in our society. There seems to be an erosion of compassion in our society and we've got to break that pattern. And I think the act of listening is one, I think, helping to clarify our values and uplift our values. Phylicia Rashad says when your values are clear, your decisions are easy. Now my decision aren't always, don't seem to be easy. But that is true when I, when I'm clear about what, what's important or my mission and values. Brad, you know this for yourself as well. When our, when we have our mission and values, then some of our decisions become easier because they align with those things that we've said are important.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:15:12]:

My parents emphasize and the older I get now I look back and say, I wish I was more grateful. Then they emphasized the importance of prayer and having your own prayer life and in your family having prayer. And also, you know, we were, you know, I kind of, you're the son of a preacher. We were force fed church. But now I have my own appetite for God, if you will. I have my own appetite to, to give thanks for the God's grace in my life. So the power to choose is something that we can exercise. And I would hope that those who are listening to this podcast will recognize that you and I have the power to choose.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:15:55]:

We can choose an attitude of gratitude. We can choose to carve out time to listen. We can choose to walk with people, whether whether it's a walk of empathy or walk of sympathies from time to time, or if simply it's the ministry of presence, you know, showing up, showing up, having the courage to show up even when you don't know what the outcome is going to be.

Dr Brad Miller [00:16:20]:

Well, let me reflect back with you a little bit on what you've shared last few minutes, which is very profound things to share. Thank you for sharing this and how I think maybe we live in times when we can kind of increase the energy in some of these areas. You mentioned about having a mission and values, and I think that's so, so important. And you mentioned how with your mother and mentioned, you know, my folks and others have given. Imparted on us mission and values. But I think a lot of people these days are having trouble defining mission and values, and maybe that's where the amplification can come in from folks like yourself and others to help people to gain clarity about their mission, about their. About their values. You also indicated that the skill of listening is so, so important.

Dr Brad Miller [00:17:12]:

People want to be heard. And I think that's one of the reasons that so many people who are hurtful to others are screaming out, I want to be heard. And even if I have to, you know, be violent, I'm going to be heard. You know, one thing we do know for sure is people who, you know, do commit mass murders and things like that, people do hear their names. And even if, you know, things like that, they. Even if it's ugly, terrible way to do it. But it seems to me the listening, we live in a time with social media and everything else, and those are great tools in many ways, but they also can bombard us with constant messages that we don't have quiet time. It may be if we can be ones who help to create the framework or create the.

Dr Brad Miller [00:17:54]:

The opportunities for quiet to happen or for listening to happen, maybe that's something we can do in the church and things like that. And then you mentioned gratitude. I just think that's so important too, and that, you know, let's not live in a world where we just. The first thing we go to is what we don't have, what we lack. Maybe we go to. Maybe we can go to what we have and celebrate that and kind of be. Let that be our first, first step instead of our reaction, you know, to things. And I think it's another area where the church and, and leaders, true leaders, can help people say, okay, what are you grateful for? What are your assets? What do you have going for you going in? This is one of the things that some of the people I work with in cancer counseling, you know, yeah, you've got a bad diagnosis, but what do you have? You know, what do you have going for you? You have, you know, family and friends.

Dr Brad Miller [00:18:50]:

You have your hair in some cases, and you have your ability to walk anything, situations like that. So what do you have? What Are you grateful for? And then of course you mentioned prayer. We, we are kind of bereft of praying. Sometimes we just need to. Those people of faith, you know, need to be, you know, praying. And, and I, I don't want to be tried about that because sometimes we can be tried about, hey, I, you know, somebody got shot. I'll give you thoughts and prayers. Well, yes, thoughts, prayers, but also work to alleviate gun violence.

Dr Brad Miller [00:19:23]:

Thoughts, prayers, but also alleviate hunger. Thoughts, prayers and also help with people who are in abused situations to have peace in their life. It's not just that, you know, prayer is what, you know, the power of prayer comes into play when we apply the power. So that's one of the things I want to respond to you about. I don't know if you have any response to my response to you, but that's. I see, I see us as a time need to amplify some of these opportunities we have in the church.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:19:48]:

Well, let me, let me share something. Yesterday I had a chance to go to a place. I know you've been there because we both went to Garrett Seminary. We both lived in Evanston, Illinois for a period of time, years ago, way back when. But I went to the Baha', I, the Baha' I temple.

Dr Brad Miller [00:20:03]:

Oh yeah. Have you thought about that since?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:20:06]:

I had not been there, since I was actually in seminary. So that, you know, that was a long, long, long time ago. I went with a group of United Methodists to the Baha' I temple in Wilmette, I guess it is outside of Evanston.

Dr Brad Miller [00:20:18]:

I think, I think so, yeah.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:20:20]:

Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful place. But we had a guy who met us on the steps and he was Baha' I. And he was originally from, from Iraq, but he then, now was, now was living in New Jersey, but he had come to Chicago to go to the Baha' I temple. He'd never been there before, but he was practicing. He gave us a 20 minute explanation of the faith. But here's something that stuck what stuck with me and we went in for what they, what they call a kind of a prayer service. They just read scripture and prayers and someone sang acapella songs.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:20:57]:

But he said they, they don't call there. They don't. He said, we don't have churches. He said, what you all would call churches, we call houses of justice. Why we call our places that you would call local churches houses of justice? Because he said, yes, all people of faith should be working towards peace and justice. I said, well, that's right, that's right up. Maybe we should change our churches. And call them houses of just.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:21:24]:

You know, Jesus said when he, when he overturned the money changers tables in the temple, he said my house must be a house of prayer. So I don't know, this late in ministry as a retired bishop, maybe, maybe a bit late, I said maybe we should have a movement to change our churches to houses of justice.

Dr Brad Miller [00:21:43]:

Well, it seems to me they're in alignment. You know, if you're praying, you are praying for just life. You know, you're praying for justice in this world and, and too much of it has been left to, left to others to define. And they often have defined it based on heavy handedness and not anything close to grace and love. And justice has been more based on whatever their agendas are. And I do agree with you wholeheartedly. It's time to reclaim grace and the power of grace and prayer and justice. And certainly we can learn from the Baha'.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:22:18]:

Is.

Dr Brad Miller [00:22:18]:

I mean, you can learn from others who are expressing their faith in their own ways. And, and, and yet we have opportunities here to express our faith and to help change the world. I know that's your passion. You know, your passion, as you've mentioned to me and to our audience here on the To Be Encouraged podcast many times, your mission is what, to encourage what, a million people? 2 million people.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:22:40]:

2 million. 2 million.

Dr Brad Miller [00:22:42]:

2 million.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:22:43]:

All people with the love of Jesus Christ, to rise to the highest potential. 2 million people. And we're on our way, Brad, with your help and many others and, you know, other ways in which we'd like to communicate in 2025, going into 2026, and notwithstanding, I'm not, I'm not going to be quiet about the injustices that I see, whether it's the starvation of children in Gaza and this is, it's, you know, or whether it's, whether it's the unseen stories of happening in places all around the globe. We, we've got to. I was inspired being at a Baha' I temple. I'm not a Baha', I, but I, I respect having been in that place and watching, looking at the scriptures that, and the prayers that are up on the eight on the ceilings of the temple. And to hear this young man who was probably in his late 20s, so passionate about his faith, speaking of the houses of justice. And I said, boy, I believe sometimes God uses other people to give witness to us, to say we need to step up our own faith, we need to step up our own witness.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:23:47]:

And I want to close, Brad, by reading from the, from the Roman, the text in Romans, because I think this might be encouraging to someone from Romans the 12th chapter. For by the grace given to me, I bid everyone. We assume this is the Apostle Paul. This has been written by. By the grace given to me, I bid everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than they ought to, but think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned you. For as in one body we have many members. All of the members do not have the same function. So we, though are many, are one body in Christ individually members one of another.

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:24:30]:

This is Romans 12, beginning at verse 3 through 5 so far, having this gift that differs according to the grace. Here again the word grace given to us, let us use them. If prophecy in proportion to our faith, if service in our serving, if one is teaching in their teaching, if one who exhorts in their exhortation, if one who contributes liberally generate with generosity, let them give aid with zeal. Whoever does acts of mercy, do it with cheerfulness. And then let me conclude with verse nine. Let love be genuine, Hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good.

Dr Brad Miller [00:25:18]:

Well, awesome. I love to hear you share the words of scripture there because they are indeed encouraging. And your mission, of course, is to encourage 2 million people. And indeed a part of what? The emphasis today on grace and empathy and sympathy and listening and all the various topics we've covered today, skills we have, gratitude and so on are all a part of this process here. And just we just apply what you read there from Paul. Gonna be in pretty good shape. So appreciate you sharing today. And hey, let's charge on my friend towards our goal of encouraging 2 million people.

Dr Brad Miller [00:25:50]:

What do you say about that?

Bishop Julius C. Trimble [00:25:51]:

Let's do it.

Dr Brad Miller [00:25:53]:

All right, well, thank you. Well, that's what our mission is here at the To Be Encouraged podcast with Bishop Julius C. Tribble. And you've been listening to this podcast where we look to offer an encouraging word to an often discouraged world.